So, wmwcjr, what's shakin'?

@Lash,

Good grief. I never expected to see my username in a topic title. Not at this website. I'm bashful.

Well, here goes. You had said at one time that you once believed in stories about Jesus, but you stopped believing (just as I lapsed into agnosticism when I witnessed the gross hypocrisy at my parents' church). Please feel free to say what first comes to your mind. I'll respond to what you say.

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@wmwcjr,

The first rumblings of disbelief came when I found what I considered unfairness in the Bible. I thought episodes of "God hardening pharoah's heart," pretty effectively condemning Pharoah to death, evidenced something too uncool for a fair and just God. Romans' write up about gays really pissed me off. If you create people who are, by virtue of your handiwork, destined to eternal misery (like the earthly one isn't bad enough) that's pretty heinous.

So, then, like most good Christians, who have really been nuts about Jesus their entire lives - I started cherry picking the Bible. I rationalized that Paul was a bit of an ass, and I was chucking him and would only follow the bits in red that were uttered by my hero.

I mean, I knew that books of the Bible had been discarded - the big book had been passed around through kings and churches and elite groups; edited, reconstituted... but I still held on to my belief that the Holy Spirit revealed to me what I was to know...so, whatever part of the Bible DID make it to me - that was the part I was supposed to see...

I held on to that for quite a while.

Then, I learned that a story identical to the Jesus Story was written in previous societies, starring differently named guys.

I did read Josephus' account of a guy meeting Jesus' description.

...and other stories, citing similar guys.

I wouldn't let people dissuade my belief. Hypocrites are everywhere.

I even thought....what if the entire Bible is bullshit, and the cruelty in this book is screwing me out of what I thought was a really nice allegience to a really incredible guy, who can't help what horrible book was written by a bunch of self-aggrandizing homophobes...?

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Hi, all. I don't mean to be dysjunctive on your conversations - I'm having trouble connecting re news. Just my computer?

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To say nothing about the fact that Paul pretty much screwed women out of the leadership roles they occupied in the very early years after the Last Supper... //////
Joe(once there was a way to get back home....)Nation

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@Lash,

Lash, I was pretty young too, when I discovered the "unfairness" of this god of the bible. There were so many inconsistencies in the bible, I couldn't understand how my siblings could rely on such garbage. God is love, but he destroys the whole of planet earth with a flood. Did I miss something?

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@Lash,

Again, my friendships are not contingent upon how people react to the Bible. That is between them and God. I won’t consider any disagreements that are raised in this thread to be personal. Lash, if I fail to provide a good answer to your objections, I won’t take it personally.

The exodus account does say that the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart. But several verses in the account also say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex. 8:15, 32, 34). So, in what sense did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? Pharaoh had free will; he was able to make his own choices. God placed Pharaoh in circumstances where he had a choice to either let the Israelites go or to harden his heart and say no. So, in that sense God hardened his heart by giving him an opportunity to make a choice. If he had never been given the choice, he never would have hardened his heart. The Israelites still would have been slaves, but he would not have hardened his heart. There’s an old adage you’ve probably heard: The same fire that melts butter hardens steel.

Lash, you’re absolutely right when you say that you can’t cherry-pick your way through the Bible. You either have to accept it all or none of it.

Homosexuality is a very sensitive issue. Some children end up with a homosexual predisposition through no fault of their own. Over the years there has been a lot of controversy as to what causes this disposition. The Bible condemns engaging in homosexual acts, but does not condemn having a homosexual predisposition. Some people have a predisposition (possibly genetic) to become alcoholics if they start drinking. (As we all know, it’s very difficult for them to quit.) But that doesn’t mean that God made them drunks. We all have problems that we have to overcome. That’s how we grow.

Jesus said there were some people who are born eunuchs and some who become that way for the kingdom of heaven. For example, a pedophile has a desire for children. (Before I continue, I am NOT comparing homosexuals to pedophiles. I’m considering pedophiles APART from homosexuals.) If a pedophile wanted to be a Christian, he would have to restrain himself and not give in to the strong desire he has. In effect, he would become a eunuch, as Jesus said.

As I said, we all have problems we have to overcome. Some people have sharp tempers, which is condemned. (I might be one of them. Wink

) Proverbs 6:16-19 says there are seven things that are an abomination to God, including “(h)aughty eyes” (pride) and “a lying tongue” -- two sins that a lot of people don’t think are all that bad. And there are others. Lash, I know you don’t like Paul; but in I Corinthians 6:11 he mentions individuals (among other categories) who had once been homosexuals, but had changed their behavior.

Could you please tell me where you heard that the Bible had been edited and revised. I have limited knowledge of this particular subject, but I understand that there are thousands of ancient manuscripts. I’ve also heard if every manuscript were destroyed, the New Testament could be recreated from all the quotations in writings of the so-called church fathers in the 1st and 2nd centuries.

When the British theologian and church reformer John Wycliffe sought to make the Bible accessible to literate people, the Catholic church opposed him because they wanted the people to be ignorant of what the Bible actually said. The Catholics had not been rewriting the Bible; they simply had ignored what it said. Otherwise, they would have excised the New Testament scripture that warned of false teachers who would forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods (I Timothy 4:1-3). The Catholic church forbade their priests to marry and for a long time taught abstaining from eating meat in certain times of the year. There are also passages contradicting other Catholic practices that were not edited when the Catholic church kept the Bible from the masses.

I haven’t covered every objection that you raised, but I hope this information will be helpful to you.

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@wmwcjr,

On second thought, since my comments were directed to you personally, perhaps this discussion would be best continued via PM.

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@wmwcjr,

I'm fine here, if you are. I had drafted a long response and my computer ate it. I have a rather busy day planned today, so I may not be able to respond for a while.

I don't mind your opinion at all - but there is a creeping tutorial-type advective in your manner of speaking. I think it best to use a conversational tone with one another, rather than one trying to show the other where they went wrong.

I don't mind sharing my experiences and listening to yours.

A more detailed response coming soon.

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Don't go to PMs, please. I'm enjoying reading this thread so far. Carry on.

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@Lash,

Quote:

I'm fine here, if you are.

I'm willing (with reservations). I'll probably end up being the most unpopular member of this forum, but so be it. Laughing

Quote:

I had drafted a long response and my computer ate it. I have a rather busy day planned today, so I may not be able to respond for a while.

There's no need to feel rushed. Please take your time. I took the time to do the best job of writing that I could do; and you, too, should take the time to do the same. I'm certainly not in a hurry. My time is also frequently limited, as I do have many responsibilities to attend.

Quote:

I don't mind your opinion at all - but there is a creeping tutorial-type advective in your manner of speaking. I think it best to use a conversational tone with one another, rather than one trying to show the other where they went wrong.

Sorry about that. I shall try to be more conversational and informal. That's just the style of writing I use when I try to calmly present my views on a serious topic. My intention is not to lecture you; and I certainly am not here to debate anyone, as I don't have the skills of a professional debater. All I want to do is share what I believe to be helpful information. I don't think I'm a know-it-all.

Quote:

I don't mind sharing my experiences and listening to yours.

I feel the same way. The civility is appreciated.

Quote:

A more detailed response coming soon.

Take your time.

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@kickycan,

Thank you. I just hope you're not eventually disappointed!

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@wmwcjr,

Don't worry, that's the story of his (Kicky's) life.

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So, still not enough time to devote to lengthy response, but I will ask if you're familiar with the Council at Nicea, aka Nicene, the Book of Mary Magdelene and other books compiled alongside the ones currently attached and considered the Bible?

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Ditto on the request not to go to PM's.

This is interesting.

2 intelligent people talking.
Nice.

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@chai2,

I agree.

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@Lash,

Well, I know that the Nicene Council in the 4th century A.D. met for the purpose of opposing some false teachings (contrary to the New Testament) that some people had and that the Nicene Creed was an attempt to summarize what Christians were supposed to believe. I’ve also heard that the Book of Mary Magdalene was written in the 2nd century; whereas, both Mary and Mary Magdalene lived in the 1st century. I really don’t know much about them or the other books you mentioned. Can you tell me about them?

Sorry I haven’t responded sooner.

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@wmwcjr,

wmwcjr

If I may...
It is not only the catholic church that calls for abstaining or fasting at specific times of the year. Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Anglicans abstain and observe Lent. In fact the bible is full of many examples of people abstaining from many things. One example that comes to mind is Jesus fasting for 40 days.
Many religions and christian sects also practice abstaining from marriage, for the clergy. Most of them seem to be in favour of marriage for the common folk though, just like the catholics.
There are several versions of the bible. The King James is highly revised, in fact it's missing a whole lot of books, my favourite being the book of Wisdom... take that for what you will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_versions

I was brought up a Catholic. I'm not practicing anymore. I've seen the wars and hatred first hand that following my god, your god, their god has caused. However, I really hate when people bring up the hated catholics with absolutely nothing more than gossip to back up their point. With all due respect, if you're going to try and make your point, it's best to stick to subjects you understand or at least have a working knowledge of. The protestant abhorrence of catholics is what it is, but dragging it out in a theological thread does nothing to further your argument.

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@wmwcjr,

Quote:

Again, my friendships are not contingent upon how people react to the Bible. That is between them and God. I won’t consider any disagreements that are raised in this thread to be personal. Lash, if I fail to provide a good answer to your objections, I won’t take it personally.

Well, I guess it may be fun for you to sharpen your Christian Response to Agnostics once in a while, so that's ok. I'm definitely not trying to change your mind. I'm not looking for answers, though.

Quote:

The exodus account does say that the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart. But several verses in the account also say that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex. 8:15, 32, 34). So, in what sense did God harden Pharaoh’s heart? Pharaoh had free will; he was able to make his own choices. God placed Pharaoh in circumstances where he had a choice to either let the Israelites go or to harden his heart and say no. So, in that sense God hardened his heart by giving him an opportunity to make a choice. If he had never been given the choice, he never would have hardened his heart. The Israelites still would have been slaves, but he would not have hardened his heart. There’s an old adage you’ve probably heard: The same fire that melts butter hardens steel.

Yeah, you seem to be doing here what I did so well for so long, which is contort a bit and wiggle until I can come up with a translation I can live with. My Bible said - God hardened Pharoah's heart. Period. God caused Pharoah to respond the way he did, and then sent him to hell for it. I'm not asking you to believe that, but I'm not buying the "hey, it's not really God's fault" argument.

Quote:

Homosexuality is a very sensitive issue. Some children end up with a homosexual predisposition through no fault of their own. Over the years there has been a lot of controversy as to what causes this disposition. The Bible condemns engaging in homosexual acts, but does not condemn having a homosexual predisposition. Some people have a predisposition (possibly genetic) to become alcoholics if they start drinking. (As we all know, it’s very difficult for them to quit.) But that doesn’t mean that God made them drunks. We all have problems that we have to overcome. That’s how we grow. Jesus said there were some people who are born eunuchs and some who become that way for the kingdom of heaven. For example, a pedophile has a desire for children. (Before I continue, I am NOT comparing homosexuals to pedophiles. I’m considering pedophiles APART from homosexuals.) If a pedophile wanted to be a Christian, he would have to restrain himself and not give in to the strong desire he has. In effect, he would become a eunuch, as Jesus said

I bet the eunuch contingent is none too happy!! Really, dear, I have heard this tack from the Christian community, and it's unacceptable to me. It's horribly cruel. Points to you, though, for a VERY politically aware piece of rhetoric. (lol!) You deftly dodged all the landmines. But, Bill, if you had a son or daughter who came to you and explained an overwhelming, unwanted - but persistent drive to develop love relationships with a member of their own sex, could you straight-faced look at your beloved baby's face, and explain to them that they should never experience love? "Never have sex." Eunuchville looks a lot better on paper, I tell you. It's a tragedy that the elements of your very creation destin you to hell.

Quote:

As I said, we all have problems we have to overcome. Some people have sharp tempers, which is condemned. (I might be one of them. ) Proverbs 6:16-19 says there are seven things that are an abomination to God, including “(h)aughty eyes” (pride) and “a lying tongue” -- two sins that a lot of people don’t think are all that bad. And there are others. Lash, I know you don’t like Paul; but in I Corinthians 6:11 he mentions individuals (among other categories) who had once been homosexuals, but had changed their behavior.

Bill, they marry women, have children and have same sex lovers for life. I've known a few.

Quote:

Could you please tell me where you heard that the Bible had been edited and revised. I have limited knowledge of this particular subject, but I understand that there are thousands of ancient manuscripts. I’ve also heard if every manuscript were destroyed, the New Testament could be recreated from all the quotations in writings of the so-called church fathers in the 1st and 2nd centuries. When the British theologian and church reformer John Wycliffe sought to make the Bible accessible to literate people, the Catholic church opposed him because they wanted the people to be ignorant of what the Bible actually said. The Catholics had not been rewriting the Bible; they simply had ignored what it said. Otherwise, they would have excised the New Testament scripture that warned of false teachers who would forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods (I Timothy 4:1-3). The Catholic church forbade their priests to marry and for a long time taught abstaining from eating meat in certain times of the year. There are also passages contradicting other Catholic practices that were not edited when the Catholic church kept the Bible from the masses. I haven’t covered every objection that you raised, but I hope this information will be helpful to you

.
Sweety, I don't need help, but thank you. I'd be interested to hear your personal reasonings and experiences. I have a family full of Christians if I want reiterations of dogma.

So, this link has a good enough write up about some of the issues that caused me to change my way of thinking regarding Christianity. http://www.livescience.com/history/080331-hs-nicea.html When I was younger, I had some sacred, holy belief that some treasured documents were written by select men, who were inspired by God...and these pristine documents were eventually gathered, bound and disseminated as the Bible. When I found out that a bunch of bishops and elitists sat around deciding if Jesus was God, who was "more divine", how will we charactarize this or that...these guys voted and deliberated on issues that seemed very sacred to me. (Interestingly, this website says there were no books removed from the group that became the Bible...I disagree).

Like with the several meetings in Nicea, Carthage and constant political wrangling, factions and the like - I didn't like the way the Bible was formulated. Far too much intervention by man, in my opinion. Like I said, I remained content that whatever was made available to me was what I was "meant" to see - but the whole thing started seeming so contrived, like I could be sold anything and patted on the head. Then, the inconsistencies - not so much factual - but cruelty from a "loving God." I started completely avoiding God in my religion. It was all about Jesus, the personality who attracted me to the whole mess in the first place.

I mean, I wasn't bothered by science, the Big Bang, dinosaurs, ...to me all of that could have been set in motion by God... the virgin birth? Sure! But, the center of my belief started reeking. I was attracted by the cool justice, the righteous perfection of that guy. That guy was all about God. I couldn't stand God. I thought Jesus should spend his time in better company.

And, I'm reading about Horus and Attis and other fables pre-dated Jesus, which featured REALLY SIMILAR attributes to the Jesus Story...

and I started confronting myself about any belief in supernatural stuff...

and I just couldn't pull it off anymore.

Why don't you tell me when you decided you believed it and why? Wink

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http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/10/22/who-changed-the-bible-and-why-bart-ehrmans-startling-answers/

Things added later. What to believe; what was added later by scribes? How can any of it be trusted?

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So, wmwcjr, what's shakin'?

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