5
   

So, wmwcjr, what's shakin'?

 
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Jan, 2011 11:32 pm
@Lash,
I’ve been working on a response to tell you about my spiritual journey, but I’ve had a busy day and I’m now tired. Truly sorry.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2011 05:36 am
Sorry if I'm butting in, but there's been a lot of scholarship put into how the books of the Bible were compiled. Here's the first of a History Channel series that's based on research, rather than faith or tradition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8PQ6_0gJUE

Edit: More of the series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK5zvn0z5h4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4fiu1iFeYg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9_bp0mf110&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma4Ymcd9ZRk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqs3lLNtAJU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSo9Ggb2UcI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B66TRRAel_Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezxpDLIQ4oE&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyrbvM3C1F0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reXmJ7GC838&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYopZyNJqa8&feature=related


Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2011 10:32 am
@wmwcjr,
Hey - one agreement I'll make you. There is no jaw-champing time limit. We're busy people and we can agree to extend the courtesy of patience. I AM interested in your spiritual journey. I can tell you the better part of mine, too, when we get around to it.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2011 10:51 am
@FBM,
FBM-
I welcome anyone to our discussion. The only thing I ask is that additions don't take on a mean tone toward wmwcjr, and I don't want him to feel piled on. Yours was great.

wmwcjr, I don't want you to feel you have to respond to everything, or that you are pressured to defend your faith. You can make comments on things if you like, or not. How you work out understanding on some of these issues IS VERY interesting to me, but your comfort is, too. I thank you for the dialogue.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2011 11:04 am
@Lash,
Thanks, Lash. I chose that series because I thought it was fair-handed and scholarly, not religion-bashing. I'm glad to see two people discussing the topic with mutual respect, like two intelligent, well-mannered adults. Too much of this sort of thing turns into a back-and-forth of the type better suited for the school playground.

I don't want to insert myself in a major way into your conversation, though. I'll go back to just reading now. Hope the information in that series is interesting and helpful. Cheers....
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 31 Jan, 2011 11:17 pm
Thank you very much for your courtesy and civility, Lash. I’m quite impressed with you. I won’t take disagreements over religious or spiritual issues personally with anyone. And thanks for giving me time to respond. Sorry for my late posting this evening. I shall describe my own spiritual journey now.

I was raised in a “mainstream” Protestant denomination by my parents. I joined their church when I was 9 years old after I took a test on the founder of that denomination. I won’t mention which denomination because I don’t want to appear to be attempting to prejudice readers of this thread against members of that denomination. There are decent people in all religions, as well as decent atheists and agnostics. That goes without saying.

My parents attended what I would call a country club church, whose membership was exclusively affluent. Their building (which is now as large as a high school) is located in the Congressional district that was once represented by the former President George Herbert Walker Bush. The hypocrisy was bad. Jerks in my Sunday school class were never reprimanded. The time was in the middle of the Cold War when the associate pastor once told my mother that he didn’t care if our country got into a nuclear war with Communist China because all those people were heathens and were going to hell, anyway. A terribly hateful comment! Not many years later another associate pastor who was hired would tell me that he was afraid to let other members know that he admired Martin Luther King, Jr.

My best friend was a member, but many of the other kids were snobs who were not spiritual. I always felt like an outsider among them. By the time I was a sophomore in high school, I had had enough. So, one morning during the fall, I chose to play hooky. Twisted Evil Laughing Instead of reporting to my classroom, I wandered around the church grounds, taking in the scenery and hoping that I would not be spotted by an adult member.

Very soon I lost interest in the worship assembly. So, I deliberately started staying up late on Saturday nights, watching B movies from the 1950s and early 1960s on TV (in other words, bug-eyed monster movies). Smile When my dad would knock on my bedroom door to wake me up the following morning, I’d say, “Dad, I stayed up too late last night. Why don’t you and Mom go without me.” Fortunately, my dad was not zealous (although he was personally close to the head pastor); and he never insisted that I get out of bed and get ready to leave for church.

More hypocrisy: The Sunday school teacher would always take roll. Surely my prolonged absence was noted (not to mention my absence from the assembly), yet my parents never received a call inquiring about their son. “We haven’t seen your son for over a month. Has he been ill?” At least they never told me they received a call. I assume I wasn’t missed.

I never attended there again. After I had graduated from high school, I heard that most of the kids my age (once they were no longer living with their parents) left the church. There was nothing to hold them there.

This will sound contradictory. I had become an agnostic, but I was looking for a body of unchanging truth. I had a deep appreciation for the physical sciences (as I still do). But I knew that science was always changing (for example, modern atomic theory from John Dalton to quantum mechanics); so, the sort of truth I was looking for would not be found there. I thought it might be found in politics, but soon realized I was wrong.

When I was 21, I had a meeting with the head pastor of my parents’ church. I told him, “I just don’t know if this Jesus of Nazareth really was what he claimed to be; namely, the Son of God.”

The pastor’s response was, “That’s okay. Just as long as you believe that he was a good man.”

Of course, this tepid answer was no help at all. As a result, for six years I had no interest in spiritual issues, not even when my mother was dying of cancer.

Then my best friend (who had also left our parents’ church) and his wife invited me to attend their church, which was nondenominational. Wary of any church, I reluctantly attended a morning Bible class followed by the worship assembly. I was quite impressed. I could tell that these people were spiritual. After three private Bible studies with one of the two preachers, I became a scriptural Christian.

For the first time in my life, I had really started studying the Bible. Their approach was logical (using the Bible as its own commentary) and not driven by emotion. When I had been a member of my parents’ church, I had believed that the Bible could not be understood. I was delighted to find out that I could learn what the Bible says. I was amazed when I found out how many denominational doctrines, both Protestant and Catholic, contradicted plain Bible teaching. I had found the body of truth that I had been looking for.

I will have more to say tomorrow. Thanks for your interest.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2011 02:04 am
@wmwcjr,
Very appreciative of your narrative! Looking forward to more.
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Feb, 2011 09:32 pm
@Lash,
Thank you. Smile

Continuing …

I don’t want to appear to be self-centered; but since you’ve asked me to tell about my own spiritual journey for the sake of our discussion, I realize that I should briefly describe the state of mind and the beliefs that led me to join this new church -- which, incidentally, I had not heard of before. I was not all that familiar with other churches.

I had started to believe in God again when I considered all the intelligent design in nature and the natural laws that govern the universe. Perhaps my agnosticism had not been all that deep. I was able to accept the notion that God is an omniscient Being (instead of a mindless force) because the creator is greater than what he has created. I was aimless at this point in my life and was going nowhere. I also was aware of my own short-comings and recognized my dependence upon direction. And at the risk of stirring up a lot of controversy, I discovered that my parents’ church had not been teaching what the New Testament teaches about what a person must do in order to become a Christian.

When I started believing that the Bible was a revelation from God and not merely collected writings of men, I resolved that I would accept its teachings, even if they were unpleasant. I did not believe that all truth was good news. After I had become a Christian, a childhood friend of mine who was an atheist accused me of engaging in wishful thinking. Nothing could be further from the truth. Some teachings of God’s word (in other words, the Bible) have actually caused me emotional pain. That’s not the result of wishful thinking.

When I had become a Christian, I did not start looking down on nonbelievers. To the contrary, the Bible reinforced my belief in the principle of having respect for others. At least I became more aware of my own failings in that regard. Today I have close friends who are unbelievers. My religious views would strike many as being exclusive and narrow-minded, yet I strongly believe in human rights and the dignity of others.

I will admit that when I became a Christian, I simply accepted the claim that the books of the Bible had not been corrupted from the times when they were written. To tell you the truth, I had not really thought about whether they were or not. I shall be open-minded enough to check the links that have been posted in this thread.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 04:27 pm
@Ceili,
I would have responded to your post sooner, but I was trying to have an exchange with Lash. Procrastination being one of my bad habits, I put off addressing an accusation you seem to have levied against me. You seem to be implying that I was fomenting hatred of Catholics. Nothing could be further from the truth. You don't know me personally. In fact, you don't know me at all; yet you've seen fit to judge me. If you did know me, you would know that my heart has bled for the underdog ever since I grasped the concept of injustice when I was very young. I experienced my share of bullying and rejection when I was a kid, and I hated the way other bullied kids were being mistreated as well. So, I am sensitive about the way others should be treated. I've been opposed to any group of people being persecuted or oppressed, including (for example) Catholics in Northern Ireland or the people of Baha'i in Iran.

One of my heroes was the late Soviet physicist Andrei Sakharov, who (as I'm sure you know) became a human rights activist. Even though he was an atheist and a humanist, he strongly condemned the persecution of believers by the Soviet regime. Did he have any less compassion for these unfortunate people because he happened to not share their faith? We live in a society in which disagreement with one's religious or political views is considered to be a form of hatred. I strongly agree that we should be thoughtful and considerate of others' feelings, but mere disagreement does not equate with hatred.

You also seem to assume that I walk lockstep with Protestantism, but I don't. For example, I maintain that the teachings of John Calvin regarding grace, etc. clearly are not scriptural. I also don't believe that Martin Luther was entirely a heroic figure. Since German Jews were not interested in his disagreements with the Catholic Church, he turned to anti-Semitism and did much to perpetuate the prejudice that eventually led to the Holocaust. Does this make me a hater of Protestants? The struggle against Jim Crow was initiated by people who were appalled at the terrible mistreatment of black Americans. Was Martin Luther King, for example, anti-white simply because he objected to whites discrimating against blacks? Perhaps the analogy doesn't fit in terms of proportion, but I think you know what I mean.
0 Replies
 
 

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