farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:56 am
@Setanta,
well, we could always raise mammoths for meat.
If we do it, lets do it right, Id like to see all the mammut and mammutidae species that were in all the habitats, browsers, grazers, swampies, etc. Ill bet a mammoth steak or ribs would be great. Look at all the bones they found at the Clovis site. 10000 paleoindians werent wrong.

Wonder what they used for sauce?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:57 am
@rosborne979,
You reqlize ros that set is not taking this in the spirit of scientific dispassion that I am.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:30 am
@farmerman,
Paeleo-mollasses . . .
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:35 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Ill bet a mammoth steak or ribs would be great.


what are you betting?
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 03:12 pm
@rosborne979,
I'm really excited about this cloning tech, we'v already cloned a ancient ox now about to clone a mammoth, but those animals are very recently extinct if one look at historic records, it would be more cool if we could clone dinos.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 03:30 pm
The eco-ethics of introducing a new (er... old) species into an environment is a major thing. I'd be hesitant to try and release them into the wild. We should maybe have a few of them to study and see how they socialize with other mammoths first and then move on to other species interaction.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 04:00 pm
Did the north american mega-fauna exist before the last ice age, or did they only develop after the last ice age? I'm wondering how persistent the mega-fauna environment was between ice ages.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 05:58 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
The rise of the mega fauna began as PAngea broke up Then, specific circum arctic forms developed and dispersed through ice free zones along the arctic boreal zones all the way south. Also several species came from SOuthAmerica and only dispersed as the ISthmus of PAnama rejoined with N AMerica. Most of these mega fauna predated the ice advances or were contemporaneous with some. There were at least 10 major ice advances in the Tertiary 4 of which we give names (Nebraskan,Illinoian, Kansan,Wisconsinian)


I posted that befoe somewhere so I dug it outta my file.
In the Upper Pliocene (the Piacenzian era) about 3.6-3.0 MYa, SOuth and North AMerica rejoined by the Isthmus of PAnama. This gace rise to the "Great Interaction" where megafauna of South America and Megafauna of Noprth AMerica "mixed" Glyptodonts came north and Proboscidians headed south. (Its funny that noone has spent much time digging fossils in Panama, it seems such an obvious location and its loaded with seabed limestoes that form caves.

The big ice ages were in the late Pliocene and into the Pleistocene, so migration continued on ice sheets in the far north.
QAs the Ice built up and the sea levels dropped, the land bridges like the Beringean allowed many species of elephant and bears to make it to the US . The evolved species of the Columbian mammoth were derived from the teppe mammoth and the Sakalhein mammoth. All these may not even be species but may merely be polymorphic varieties of same species, (variances like sizes, trunk lengths, colors etc may jsut be minor variations but paleontologists love having the honor of naming something so nobody has bitched about it yet and I really dont know enough about fossil elephants to really give a ****)
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:10 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The muskox survives on the tundra. The wooly mammoth survived on the heavy grass lands of the periglacial steppes. I doubt that any place you could find, even if the climate were cold enough, would have the forage to support mammoths.

What does a Periglacial Steppe look like exactly (flora wise)? Is it all 6' tall grassland or is it trees and bushes?

What types of habitat do modern elephants require to survive?
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:20 pm
@farmerman,
So the basic contingent of megafauna survived up to 10 repeated glaciations during the pleistocene? Can we assume that the flora that supported them re-established itself every time the ice retreated? Or did the various megafauna adapt itself to new flora every time?

I'm trying to get a better image of what the world looked like during the interglacials and how adaptable the various megafauna were to changing habitat.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:25 pm
An artist's vision...
http://www.karencarr.com/auto_image/Karen_Carr_North_American_Pleistocene_Landscape.jpg
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:27 pm
@rosborne979,
Weve gotta think of animal ranges of many of these megafaunas in 4 dimensions. Assigning a niche to , say, the wooly mammoth as being periglacial steppe isnt so. These animals ranged (AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER), the entire sub arctic ranges from boreal forests to losess plains and even desert areas . Theyve found numerous woolies in the southern regions of Italy and even in the middle east. In North and south AMerica there are specimens freom jungles to the La Brea tarpits. They even found spwecimens in the edges of the con shelf in Florida. The entire world was "pweri glacial' and these animals all wandered from place to place and weve found them in different niches at different times. Thast why the several species were named because every one wants to preserve "Wooly" as an ice cube walking elephant that was depicted by diorama makers as walking the edges of the huge continental glaciers.
Anywqay, a "Steppe" is a big dry grassland that is drier than our prairies.

Migration of animals in the glacial epochs was managed by time and melting. Musk ox-IMHO are short legged and had already been adapted to munch on lichens even before they migrated across Beringea. (Actually Im not sure where musk ox were first described Ill have to look that up somewhere)

rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:28 pm
Africa today...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ODhrGAzRRzI/TGsLi7E2zoI/AAAAAAAAAJA/r7d90sjiSPE/s1600/4savanna.jpg
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:39 pm
Canadian Grasslands
http://travelbyphotos.com/images/grasslands.JPG
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:42 pm
@farmerman,
I'm thinking that a small herd of cloned mammoth might do nicely in modern canada. Unless of course, we discover that they taste good.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:51 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Researchers at Penn State University have sequenced about 85% of the gene map of the woolly mammoth, using DNA taken from hair samples collected from a selection of specimens, advancing the possibility of bringing the woolly mammoth back to life by inserting mammoth DNA sequences into the genome of the modern-day elephant, transferring it into an egg cell and, in turn, into the uterus of an elephant as a variant of interspecific pregnancy.[9][10] Although the samples were washed with bleach to remove possible contamination by bacteria or fungi, some DNA bases identified may be from the contaminating organisms and these have yet to be distinguished. To this end, scientists at the Broad Institute are currently generating a comparison with the genome of the African elephant.[11][12][13] The information cannot be used to synthesize mammoth DNA, but Dr. Stephan Schuster, leader of the project, notes that the mammoth’s genes differ at only some 400,000 sites from the genome of the African elephant and it would be possible (though not with presently available technology) to modify an elephant cell at these sites to make it resemble one bearing a mammoth's genome, and implant it into a surrogate elephant mother.[14]

In January 2011, it was reported[15] by Yomiuri Shimbun that a team of scientists headed by Akira Iritani of Kyoto University had built upon research by Dr. Wakayama mentioned above, saying they will extract DNA from a mammoth carcass that had been preserved in a Russian laboratory and insert it into the egg cells of an African elephant in hopes of producing a mammoth embryo. The researchers said they hoped to produce a baby mammoth within six years.


Christ, theyve got a project schedule already developed. A Baby mammoth in 6 years. I hope the DNA is not loaded with junk, thats why the PEnn State guys are taking long because they have to be careful about all the bacteria and other foreign gene material.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:51 pm
More grassland in Canada. I never realized there was so much open natural space up there Smile

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ndoJPI7F_R4/TEjEbtIKzVI/AAAAAAAAAkQ/zpUW7B3TaLQ/s1600/IMG_3337.JPG
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:52 pm
@rosborne979,
Youre kidding, right?
rosborne979
 
  3  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:55 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Youre kidding, right?

Hey, I don't spend much time thinking about Canadian Prairie, alright. Smile

That's some nice looking country up there.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:51 pm
@rosborne979,
A steppe is a vast grass land--your images show what steppes looked like. It is precisely because trees and undergrowth could not survive in the periglacial regions (very, very cold, high winds off the ice sheets) that many grasses could not just survive, but take over the flora of the steppes. Trees and shrubs and many of the flowering plants only survived in the gallery forests of deep-cut river valleys. It appears that each species specialized in one of the types of grass available. The megafauna arose because of the abundant grazing, and the necessity to carry a lot of fat and a heavy coat. As prey animals went, so went the predators--short-faced bears, cave lions, cave bears--these predators exploited the megafauna.

The grasslands you have provided images of are the kinds of environments (minus the trees) that one would have found on the periglacial steppes, but the climate, even in high summer, would have been much, much colder. The megafauna needed to store lots of fat, and to have thick hides and heavy fur coats--by spring, their fat would have been nearly all used up. Humans were attracted to these herds of game, despite the harsh climate, because one aurochs, or giant deer, or giant bison provided so much food and material for clothing and crafts, and the periglacial steppes were awash in animals. The shifts humans made to survive on those steppes are impressive, too. They had lodges half buried in the earth, with the side walls and roofs made from mammouth bones and the bones of other megafauna, over which grasses and mud were slathered. They had fire pits near the entrances, with underground vents to bring in air like a bellows. They were incredibly adroit in surviving and enviroment which was harsh and unforgiving, but which offered so much to the survivors.
0 Replies
 
 

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