Are animals as uncivilized as most seem to think they are?

Nature shows about humans : that's a disturbing thought (shudder) . I've seen the way my dog watches me when I get undressed. Little pervert!

They certainly have a culture - but how much of it is transmitted by education, not by instinctive patterns is another thing.

Different groups of chimps have different ways of catching termites and cracking nuts, which they teach to their young. This would seem to me to fit unto even a tight definition of culture.

Some crows and such have learned to crack hard nuts by getting cars to run over them. If they teach their babies to do the same - there we are again, I think.

Signing primates talk to themselves, hiding their hands from handlers, sometimes, and teach babies the sign language.

Hmmmmmmmmm?


Pigs are smarter than dogs.

And in the nature shows, they look at the way we eat processed meat the same way that we look at dung beatles doing their business.

dlowan, I like your ideas, but I was thinking more on the lines of civilization equal to if not greater than ours. But it would be so incredibly different that we wouldn't even know that it was there, or we would but our subconscious wouldn't let us accept it.

Do you think that any animals can communicate cross-species?

dlowan: Many skills are innate but there are also many examples of higher animals learning and developing different skills. Are you familiar with that famous study of a colony of monkeys in Japan where one individual, a monkey genius of sorts, created a number of different innovations (including washing food before eating it) which the rest of the colony copied.

Primates have been taught to sign, but compared with a four year old deaf child who has been taught a sign language since birth, the chimp's skills are extremely basic.

Perhaps it is entirely too anthropocentric to judge other animals by human standards of intelligence. Human "achievement" consists largely of bringing our own species dangerously close to extinction, as well as the rest of the planet. Certainly, if animals are capable of abstract thought, they are a lot saner than we are. Perhaps abstract reasoning itself is the cause of our insanity.

How would you define "communication". If you include gestures and other non-verbal types of communication, then I would say that animals can communicate admirably across different species.

I think that in order to contemplate the original question, it would be necessary to define "culture", and "civilisation" further. The terms are very general and have been used in the past justify the violation of human rights of many tribes.

I believe whales and dolphins have shown they have very intricate forms of communication. They sing, laugh and call to each other. Plus they have that extra cool radar thing going on.
Ravens, crows and magpies have been taught to talk and use tools and most definatly have an early warning system.

Fangs communicate pretty well.

That's funny, I don't consider animals uncivilized. I mean, they don't build, read, speak, but they have very good systems of communication and hierarchy.

Thousands of species BUILD a nest or a den, furnish it with nice things and cement it just so. Humans are a minority in this group.

Every minute you spend with an animal, it is READING you, watching you, understanding your mood and motives. It has to for it's own survival. Humans are the ones who ignore other species. Does this make us superior, just because we are numb and can't see them thinking to the same extent they see us?

Animals have far more KNOWLEDGE about the elements, what is around us, and other living things. They know what their senses tell them, and they know where and how to get their needs met. Do you know many people like that?

Most animals are smart. When they see a human being, they run for their lives.

Animals establish a natural equilibrium with their environment. They don't destroy their source of food and create poor substitutes that are sold at exorbitant prices. Some people would call this sanity, dispassionate compassion, or a natural balance in being part of a whole interdependent system. Animals participate. Are you part of your environment? How sane is the human race?

When an animal finds something nice, that it can use, it uses every bit that would possibly be helpful. This is a natural tribute or appreciation to whatever it interracts with. An animal doesn't hoard unused things out of insecurity, vanity or ego. Spiritually, animals are far more advanced than people, and bring much more honor and respect to whatever they interract with.

When it comes to something meaningful or with deep value, what do you see human beings doing? Is there any time when people love the world and each moment nearly as much as an animal does?

Sorry smiley, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on a few things.


They do destroy their source of food, but then they don't have much do eat and die off and maintain the balance.
Some animals will find alternate sources of food if their main source is extremely sparse. In fact, some fishermen are having trouble finding certain fish because a few predators have switched prey.
And some primates will bargain food for a higher place in the hierarchy.


True, but they have a specific knowledge of only the environment in which they live. If they didn't know about the elements and which animals to stay away from, they would quickly die. Whereas humans mostly have a knowledge of the city, a few have learned much about both the city and untouched nature.

The one thing that bonds humans with most animals out there is curiosity. And curiosity is the main reason why we became so smart, is it possible that that has also pushed animals to become like us?

I've known of a few people who are much less civilised than animals.

And I've known a few animals who were much more civilized than man...

Individual, I suppose it all depends on the definition of "civilized". Your observation brought to mind the work of Kohler with primates. The gorilla that he worked with was named Sultan, and that big monkey learned to do many things that early man had to learn before becoming civilized; however, it seems to me that I remember Kohler observing that gorillas are far too intelligent to be trained.

I don't understand your point...

Individual, if you are speaking to letty..then here is the explanation:

Animals in the wild are one thing; in captivity, another.

Konrad Lorenz one observed that dogs, when confronted by another dog, will yield by exposing the jugular vein. That is the sign that the aggressive animal maintains territorial imperative. In today's world, when people do not look an enemy in the eye, anything is possible. You see, Individual, when a pilot drops a bomb..he does not see his enemy..ergo, it becomes easy to kill. Animals, in their natural state, are far more civilized. Follow? Push a button; drop a bomb.No eye contact

You seem to be connecting the definition of civilized with ethics. Thank you for your ideas though, they are very interesting.

What I am more concerned with is if animals have a highly organized civilization full of all sorts of wonders that we can't experience. Surely we aren't the only animal to develope an advanced society.

Millions upon millions of senses, perceptions, reactions, understandings, habits, practices, expressions, constructions, relationships and results.

Yeah, I'd say that animals have a far greater Civilization, full of many more wonders and richer experiences, than the society humans have come up with.

more
In accordance with the idea that an animal, any animal, functions in a higher and more advanced society than a human being, I would have to say that it's obvious they do not. However an animals world is specific and their societies exist in accordance with balance (be it geometric, termites and other builders, social, ants so forth, and/or directly natural, prey and predator); ours is still struggling with finding its basic niche in a world we are destroying to create.

A lot of animals are socialized, but civilized? Civil implies some sort of mass cohesion towards a common goal, between unrelated parties. I don't see that in the animal world at all.