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The Siege of Catholocism: Just or not?

 
 
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 12:41 pm
I don't know if that many people are aware of this, but for the past few years now there has been a growing movement in Italy by a group of atheists to sue the Catholic Church for the murders of several dozen people centuries ago, along with purposely lying to early Christians to simply "Get their money". Now I'm an agnostic, I don't really believe in God or what have you, and I do naturally recognize the horrible deeds the Catholic Church used to commit upon Muslims Jews and masses of Christians who were rebellious toward's the Church's authority. But I don't really see how you can justify suing an institution for crimes it commited five hundred years ago, when it is in no way the same institution as it was then, and since John Paul II publically apologized, for the first time in history for a pope, to the people of the world FOR the crimes of Catholocism. I just think this is just another classic case of ambulence chasing by radicalist atheists attempting to destroy religion? Share your opinion, and please don't be offended if you're an atheist who supports this movement.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,265 • Replies: 13
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 05:47 am
I don't give a crap about the Catholic Church, but this does indeed sound like a gratuitous lawsuit.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 07:08 am
I am reminded of the quote of Falstaff in Henry IV, Part II, referring to the time when Prince Hal (future Henry V) would come to the throne:

First thing we do, Hal, is hang all the lawyers

or something to that effect . . .

As a survivor of Catholicism, i haven't much sympathy, but would only note that now somebody needs to sue those Protestants sons-of-bitches for all the tens of thousands of women they burned as witches . . .
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 10:10 am
set, but they were witches....
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 10:16 am
Witches, smitches . . . so they had cold titties, is that any reason to bar-b-que 'em?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Dec, 2003 10:53 am
I posted a response to this -- and I don't see it.

Has this identical thread been posted elsewhere???
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Seeker
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 10:43 am
Yes Frank, there is a discussion board that has the same title but with righteous instead of just. Did you write there?

This sounds v. v. weird and I really don't see how Christians today, of whom many are kind and well-meaning, can be sued for acts that have nothing to do with them. Rolling Eyes
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 10:52 am
I wonder
Does anyone see a similarity to the lawsuits for reparations resulting from slavery?
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 11:57 am
One view of the Vatican's Agenda
One provocative view of the Vatican's agenda:

http://www.endtimeissues.com/articles/59/

VATICAN -- HOLY SEE
Church or State
Lateran Treaty Changed

For nearly 700 years the papacy ruled as a church-state power until 1870 when the new government of the state of Italy (formally established in1861) seized the "papal states," which included Rome. Pope Pius IX went into self-imposed imprisonment within a few buildings in central Rome. This wiped out the church-state hierarchy of the Catholic Church but not the Catholic Church. Vatican I was called during this period and some of the most sinister decisions regarding the church, its power and future plans were developed, including the concept of papal infallibility.

To prevent remonstrance against the newly formed government, Italy passed a law entitled "Law of Papal Guarantees on May 13, 1871. It granted the pope sovereign honors and full freedom to exercise his spiritual authority, the right to receive and send ambassadors, with some minor territorial usage rights in Italy - plus a salary. Pope Pius IX refused to acknowledge this document. Immediately, the relationship between the Italian government and the Roman Catholic Church began to deteriorate. By May 1873 the Italian chamber of deputies invoked an 1866 law, taking over all religious orders, Catholic schools and hospitals throughout the country. That is when a serious blow came to the papacy.

It was during this period of civic isolationism that Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903) came into power. He developed an official position on religious liberties and church-state relations, which demanded that states must not only care for religion but must "recognize the true religion professed by the Catholic church." He was powerless to enact this and other dictums that evolved during this time. It wouldn't be until Vatican II that they would implement this groundwork, which included "plans" to first coerce America and later the world.

On February 11, 1929, the Lateran Treaty and Concordant between the Vatican and the kingdom of Italy was signed, which established the autonomy of the Holy See as a church-state. On June 3, 1985, the Vatican and Italy ratified a new church-state treaty known as a "concordat," which replaced the Lateran Pact of 1929. Though reported as a downgrade of Catholic power and papal influence, it actually gave greater international flexibility. To that point the original treaty declared Roman Catholicism as the state church of Italy. By separating from this, along with other legal stances, the Vatican - Holy See stands more independent without legal ties to Italy. This now opens the door for it to become a full-fledged member of the United Nations (U.N.) with the question of religious issues lessened. Also, Rome ceased to be declared in the concordats as a "Holy City."

The Holy See has been registered as a "Non-member State Permanent Observer" of the U.N. All other world religions serve as NGO's or non-governmental organizations. Because of the rarely-used designation granted to the Holy See, it has privileges of a state like no other church has. It can speak and vote at all U.N. conferences. No other religion has this elevated status. Because U.N. conferences operate on a consensus, the ability to disagree with the major consensus gives it significant power. It is most intriguing that the General Assembly never took a vote on the presence of the Holy See at the U.N.1

The Vatican is not registered with the United Nations as a state but as the Holy See. By definition the Holy See is a non-territorial religious entity. It is not a state but the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church.

Switzerland had been in a Permanent Observer status, but in February of 2002 they became a full fledged U.N. member. The Vatican is now the only Permanent Observer "organization" not yet admitted as a full member of the U.N.

The Vatican is situated on 108 acres and is a true sovereign state with citizenry, courts, police force, postal service and ambassadors. It is seen as a separate "nation." Yet, its U.N. ties are totally religious.

People look to the Vatican, not because of its vast military, economy or potential for commerce; they come in the hope to have contact with one of the most charismatic individuals in the world - the pope. He has enormous stature on the world scene.

"Critics contend that on some issues he is too theologically conservative for the times, but the steady parade of world leaders has made it plain that he is a man to be reckoned with.

"There are few experiences, even for a world leader, as daunting as being escorted through the elaborate halls of the Apostolic Palace. Along the way, thousands of years of history and power make their impression, even before the leader lays his eyes on the pope.

"A world leader is received by the pope in the private library. Here they will exchange gifts and read statements typical of any state visit. But the Holy See is a religious state, and that means there are variations on normal diplomatic protocol."2

"The Roman Catholic Church first officially participated at the United Nations when the Vatican City was invited to United Nations conferences because of its membership in the Universal Postal Union and the International Telecommunication Union. In 1957, through an exchange of letters, the Holy See and the Secretary-General of the United Nations agreed to refer to the Papal delegation at the United Nations as the "Holy See." Finally, on March 21, 1964, Pope Paul VI established the first Holy See ?'permanent observer' mission at the United Nations. As a result, the Holy See is regarded as a ?'non-member state' permanent observer....

"The status of a permanent observer places restrictions upon an entity's role at the United Nations, and these limitations generally vary according to the type of permanent observer status. There are no provisions in either the United Nations Charter or the Rules of procedure of the Economic and Social Council (?'ECOSOC') that specifically refer to the participation of non-United Nations members in ECOSOC meetings. However, non-member state observers have been invited to participate in meetings discussing matters of concern to those states. Since the Holy See is a permanent observer, it cannot cast a vote in the General Assembly of the United Nations. But permanent observers have sometimes participated, on an ad hoc basis, in General Assembly discussions and decisions. The Holy See has participated in the General Assembly on several occasions. Pope Paul VI addressed that body on October 4, 1965, and Pope John Paul II did so on October 2, 1978. The Permanent Observer for the Holy See addressed the Tenth Special Session of the General Assembly Devoted to Disarmament."3

In a legal sense the Holy See is a religious body represented at the U.N. Examination of its entry into the U.N. shows it achieved its exclusive position without meeting the proper criterion on member votes. It is quietly trying to achieve full status as a Non-member but not as the Holy See but as the Vatican, the official state! If it achieves this status and remains as a Holy See Permanent Observer, then it will be an achievement like no other in world politics, power or deceptive maneuverings has ever attained.

As all this moves forward, "The Roman Catholic Church is uniquely positioned to influence international policy-making. It speaks on issues of concern for its religious following to numerous nations around the world. At the international level, the Roman Catholic Church uses its distinctive position at the United Nations to affect a wide range of global issues, including international economic development, women's status, population, and family planning....

"The Holy See's status at the UN entitles it to many of the same privileges enjoyed by governments. Yet, the Holy See lacks traditional citizenry of its own. The Holy See speaks at the UN not as a nation-state addressing the pressing concerns of its citizens, but as a religion seeking to exert its version of morality on Catholics and non-Catholics alike. All of the other religions of the world are entitled only to the limited privileges of non-governmental organizations within the UN. The Roman Catholic Church therefore enjoys a unique degree of international political leverage typically reserved for governments....

"The Holy See serves as ?'the supreme organ of government of the [Catholic] Church,' with the Pope designated as its head in the Code of Canon Law. It is, by definition, a non-territorial religious entity. The Holy See consists of the Pope, the College of Cardinals, and the Roman Curia - the departments and ministries that assist the Pope in the government of the Chruch. The Pope possesses supreme authority within the Church, and no one may appeal his decisions or decrees. The Pope's authority rests on moral and spiritual principles and is not enforced by civil penalties.

"Widely regarded as a ?'vassal' territory of the Holy See, the Vatican City exists solely to provide a base for the central administration of the Roman Catholic Church. Only 0.44 square kilometers in size, the Vatican City is the smallest area in the world that claims statehood.4

"... the Vatican is constantly interfering in American politics without any threat of congressional investigation. And such intervention occurs not only in the United States but across the world.

"Since the Vatican's intervention is almost as top secret as the CIA's, the following little-known episodes, with one exception, are provided by Catholic writers....

"It is obvious from such intervention in foreign and domestic policy and in its opposition to both contraceptives and abortion, that the Vatican views itself as the fulfiller of a theocratic world state, with the authority to tell legislators in democratic nations what they must or must not legislate.

"If someone argues that the! church is merely engaged in moral instruction, it is essential to note the distinction between a civil state and a church. In the United States, the Constitution requires the government to ?'promote the general welfare;' not just the welfare of those approved by the Vatican. Moreover, the Vatican is not just a church; it is also a state ruled by the same people who rule the church....

"It also means that the Vatican claims representation in the United Nations and functions like a nation-state in international gatherings at the same time that it functions like a church. Yet, American politicians would never investigate the Vatican's numerous attempts to influence or control American foreign or domestic policy because, like a chameleon, it would claim it was merely functioning as a church, not as a state. In fact, it is already so powerful that anyone who tried to investigate it would find such an endeavor a political liability.

"All this is evidence why political ecumenism is a real danger. Progressive Catholics and non-Catholics must examine every proposal by Catholic bishops and Catholic politicians with unusual scrutiny as to whether they will move us ever closer to a theocratic state - quite like the state advocated by such Protestant right-wing groups as the Christian Coalition, Promise Keepers, Focus on the Family and James Kennedy's Coral Ridge Ministries. There is some evidence that they may already be in bed together."5

Quietly and imperceptibly the influences of the Roman Catholic Church increases. It has, since 1985, positioned itself in such a way it can play its church or state influence at will. Through social issues it is manipulating governments. Politicians are increasingly sympathetic to its demands because nearly everywhere they have Catholic constituents. The stage is being set for the assumption of power, which the Bible says will come. It will be supported by the U.S. government in unprecedented control to finally achieve a theocratic end one could easily call a tyranny. Editor: EndTime Issues… magazine 04-2003

References

1www.seechange.org

2www.nationalgeographic.com/news/11/1118_vaticankiplomacy.html.

3www.population-security.org/crlp-94-07.html.

4www.crlp-org/Pub_art_holysee.html.

5www.population-security.org/swom-97-07.htm.

Christian Heritage Foundation © 2001-2003


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Endtime Issues April 2003 - EndtimeIssues.com
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Guitarman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 10:27 am
I think this should be brought to court. If someone can sue McDonalds why not anyone else? And the Salem Witch Burnings not many were set aflame if any.
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 10:30 am
Guitarman wrote:
And the Salem Witch Burnings not many were set aflame if any.


Probably because there was no such thing as the "Salam Witch Burnings". They were the "Salem Witch Trials". Most found guilty were hung.
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Guitarman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 10:34 am
and out of the 13 girls in the trial, I believe 7-10 were hung.
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yeahman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 11:06 am
Guitarman wrote:
and out of the 13 girls in the trial, I believe 7-10 were hung.

There was more than 1 trial. Hundreds were jailed. 19 were hanged and 1 was crushed to death. A few others died in prison including an infant. Nobody who went to trial was ever found innocent.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2004 02:29 pm
I think the structure of the Catholic Church has to change, it's just too conservative, it abuses its power; when saying condoms are bad for example, the effect on Europeans wont be very big, but in for example African countries this can have a huge effect. As a Roman Catholic - don't let my name fool you - I'm dissatisfied by the way the Church is acting at the moment. Sadly enough there are no (big) progressive movements in the Church yet. There were some but they immediatly turned from Rome enterily (Old Catholics for example), and others eventually weakened their protests and returned to the Pope. Hmmm maybe its time for me to find some new religion
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