mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Dec, 2003 11:40 pm
hobitbob wrote:
The same punishments are prescribed for aposates from Christianity (See Tertullian).
hobitbob
I am no apologist for Christianity, but except fo r some fringe cults, I don't think that a christian apostate has a lot to be concerned about nowadays. It is much more of a Serious issue for muslims.
0 Replies
 
sam2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 05:58 am
Islam is the sole means to fulfilling the purpose of our existence, which in turns leads to the attainment of true inner peace and eternal salvation.
Islam is the world's fastest growing, yet most misunderstood religion. Why ?
Islam is professed by about one-fifth of humanity. People from all walks of life, seeking truth and wholeness, are converting to Islam in significant numbers. In a few years, Islam will be the religion with the largest number of followers on Earth, superseding Christianity. Despite these facts, there exist a number of false yet widespread ideas about Islam. Often, these ideas are the result of ignorance, prejudice, orientalist bias, missionary polemics or just plain, good old-fashioned propaganda.
A person who is unfamiliar with Islamic teachings might be surprised to hear that Islam does not rely upon blind faith to make its case, but rather, encourages us to use our minds. For example, the Qur'an invites us to ponder upon the wonders of creation, and challenges us with intellectual arguments. Further study of the Qur'an demonstrates that sound reasoning and scientific knowledge confirm rather than contradict authentic revelation. Indeed, one of the many unique aspects of Islam is its ability to satisfy the intellect whilst bringing peace to the soul.
Islam is an Arabic word which means 'Submission to the Will of God'. A Muslim therefore, is one who submits to the will of God. Islam is based upon two basic principles. The first principle is that there is none worthy of worship except God, who is absolutely unique and transcendent. The second principle is that Muhammad(P) is the final messenger of God, who was sent to all of mankind. These two principles are mentioned in the testimony of faith - the first pillar of Islam: There is none worthy of worship but God - Muhammad is the messenger of God. This simple yet profound truth is the foundation of a perfect, comprehensive and beautiful way of life.
Islam is not new religion, but a continuation of the simple and powerful message of pure monotheism revealed by God throughout history.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 06:09 am
You know, i forgot to ask, in the midst of all the religious hilarity, how you justify your claim of the benevolence of Islam, and then refer to Cat Stevens, who clearly stated to the press that Rushdie should die for his writings, and that he agreed with the fatwa condemning him to death?
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 06:14 am
Quote:
There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur'an, the Sunna, and the Hadith - Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam. The fundamentalists, with greater logic and coherence than so-called moderate or liberal Muslims, have made Islam the basis of a radical utopian ideology that aims to replace capitalism and democracy as the reigning world system. Islamism accounts for the anti-American hatred to be found in places far from the Arab-Israeli conflict, like Nigeria and Afghanistan, demonstrating that the Middle East conflict cannot legitimately be used to explain this phenomenon called Islamism. A Palestinian involved in the WTC bombings would be seen as a martyr to the Palestinian cause, but even more as a martyr to Islam.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 06:16 am
Quote:
Only Islam treats non-believers as inferior beings who are expendable in the drive to world hegemony. Islam justifies any means to achieve the end of establishing an Islamic world.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2003 10:40 am
sam2 wrote:
Islam is the world's fastest growing, yet most misunderstood religion. Why ?

Sam2
Perhaps it has to do with
1. Once in you can't get out
2. Born a Muslim, always a muslim
3. Intimidation in countries such as Sudan and Nigeria.

Instead of continuing to spout drivel, how about responding directly to some of the responses you have received.

As to Islam being misunderstood please take a look at the link in my last post for some testimonials from muslims that made it out. While there be sure to watch the video of a stoning (if you can stomach it) for an example of islamic justice in action. For those of you that missed it, I will post the link again.
Link here

The real question for me is why anyone would possibly choose this religion voluntarily!!
0 Replies
 
sam2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2003 01:32 am
The growth of interest in theocracy and theonomy (esp. in the form of Rushdoony's and North's Christian Reconstructionism, as well as Pat Robertson's and Jay Sekulow's "Christianization" school) in the Christian world is becoming more and more like the Islamic world than not. Devolution, as it were.

*************************************************************

We have to know the Islamic view:

Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely [Qur'an 5:32]

One of the core meanings of Islam is peace. Therefore, the inhumane and horrific events which caused innocent casualties - including many Muslim victims - is clearly, without a doubt, completely un-Islamic.
However, it should be noted that the actions of an individual or a small group do not necessarily represent the beliefs of a particular religion, nor is that religion responsible for such actions. Therefore, the media’s labeling of those who are allegedly responsible for these actions as “Islamic Terrorists” and the linking of such actions to Islam or the Qur’an, is incorrect. Rather, such inhumane actions clearly contradict the teachings of Islam - just as the bombing at Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh and the killings that occurred at Ibrahim Mosque, Hebron by Dr. Baruch Goldstein clearly contradict the teachings of Christianity and Judaism, respectively.
It is inconceivable that the religion of Islam, which takes its teachings from the noble Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad - peace be upon all of them - would ever teach terrorism or suicide missions. In reality, Islam not only condemns terrorism and suicide missions, but also prohibits them completely. Thus, many Muslim nations, organizations, and communities all around the world have condemned such actions, hoping never to see its like again.
It is also unfortunate that harassment of various kinds (including shootings, beatings, stone throwing, robberies, vandalism, death threats and hate language) has occurred against innocent Muslims resident in the United States – the elderly, women and children alike. In addition, Islamic places of worship and Muslim owned businesses have now become the targets of some peoples’ anger and ignorance, just as the American people had become the targets of the anger and ignorance of the perpetrators of the World Trade Center attacks. Such bigotry and hatred is inhumane and unjustified.
We denounce the killing of innocent civilians in the United States, just as we have patiently for many years denounced the killing of innocent civilians in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, India and other countries.
May God, Almighty, the One without any associates or partners in His Divinity, guide us all to the

Truth and spread peace throughout the earth. Ameen.

*************************************************************


Interest in Islam mounts after 11 September

Martin Bright
Sunday September 1, 2002
by The Observer newspaper

A year ago they feared their religion would be tarred by the attack that left over 3,000 dead in  on New York and Washington. But Muslims across Britain are now crediting an '11 September factor' for the upsurge of interest in their religion.
From Islamic bookshops and university comparative religion courses to the dusty corridors of Whitehall, non-Muslims are rushing to find out more about the beliefs of Islam and the life of the Prophet Mohammed.
Sales of the Muslim holy book, the Koran, have gone through the roof. Penguin, the publishers of the best-known English-language translation of the Koran, registered a 15-fold increase in the three months following 11 September and sales have held up well since.
Meanwhile the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has been overwhelmed by the response to new Islamic Awareness courses they have set up for diplomats being posted to Muslim countries and London-based staff with an interest in the wider Islamic world.
Not since the Satanic Verses affair in 1989, when novelist Salman Rushdie was condemned to death for blasphemy by Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini, has Islam been such a sensitive political issue in Britain.
The rise in Islamophobia and even racist attacks has been matched, sometimes in the same geographical area, by a thirst for knowledge of a religion which many are surprised to find has common links to Christianity and Judaism. Moses and Christ are both considered prophets in Islam.
Dilowar Khan, director of the East London mosque which holds open days for non-Muslims four times a year, said that visits from schools, university students and even tourists had increased over the past year. At the same time he said there had been an average of two or three people asking to convert every month.
'A similar thing happened during the Salman Rushdie affair. A lot of people converted to Islam as they struggled to understand what was happening. Of course, there has been the opposite effect as well, some people have become more hostile, said Mr Khan.
The East London mosque now plans to publish a magazine Discover Islam to cater for the demand for information. The first issue will contain an article on the attractions of the Muslim faith by journalist Yvonne Ridley, held captive by the Taliban last year and now considering converting to Islam.
Dr Abdulkarim Khalil, director of the Al-Manaar Cultural Heritage Centre in Kensington, West London, which opened shortly after 11 September, said: 'In a sense it was a natural reaction to the events. People wanted to know more and we expected that, but no one expected the scale of the interest, not just here but across the world.'
Dr Khalil said that there had been some minor incidents immediately after the terror attacks, when women were verbally abused for wearing the headscarf, the hejab. 'But we've been surprised that nothing serious has happened. We've even had non-Muslim members of the local community coming to reassure us and express their support for the centre.' Although some experts talk of a 'know thy enemy factor' in the rush to find out about Islam in the aftermath of 11 September, the panic has now settled into genuine interest.
At the traditionally Arabist Foreign Office, the fascination for Islam has filtered down throughout the department over the past year. Trial Islamic Awareness Training sessions have proved so successful that Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has decided to offer them to all Foreign Office staff likely to come into contact with Islamic issues. The courses consist of a lecture on the basic tenets of Islam followed by a speech by a visiting expert on contemporary Muslim issues and a visit to a mosque.
In a speech to the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies earlier this year, Straw urged a greater understanding of Islam. Last month the Foreign Office also hosted the largest reception for the Muslim community ever held by a government department, although many thought they were being softened up for a planned attack on Iraq.
A Foreign Office spokesman said: 'The cultural element has always been a central part of the training of diplomats, but it has usually been part of language courses. We wanted to extend the training and make it become systematic throughout the office.'
" ISLAMCALL.COM" now is asking you why they finding what they are looking for on Islam ?!!!!!!!
be with them to save your live now and after death while you are alone no one with you just Islam can save you .
 
NUMBER OF HISPANIC MUSLIM CONVERTS GROWING

TARA DOOLEY, Houston Chronicle, 8/17/02
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1537375

HUEVOS rancheros for breakfast; fasouliye for dinner.

It was not an unusual menu that graced the table one recent Thursday at
Patricia El-Kassir's west Houston home.

For El-Kassir, a Mexican-American convert to Islam, starting the day with
the Mexican egg breakfast and ending it with a Lebanese meat-and-bean
dinner meant nothing more than the merging of cultures easily found in Islam.

"One of the things that brought me to Islam, that I think is so beautiful,
is that Muslims come from all nations," said El-Kassir, whose husband is a
native of Lebanon.

"You can be Mexican and be a Muslim and be happy," she added. "You don't
have to be torn between two things."

Though Muslims may live in all nations, when El-Kassir first accepted Islam
16 years ago as a 15-year-old student at Bellaire High School, she was one
of few Hispanic Muslims at Houston-area mosques, she said. She didn't meet
another Hispanic Muslim until she was an adult living in Lebanon.

Now when El-Kassir looks around at local gatherings of Muslims, she sees
others with roots in Mexico and Central and Latin America. She even has
friends with whom she can discuss the ins and outs of halal meat in tamales…

A study of mosques in the United States published in 2001, indicated that
about 6 percent of converts to Islam in the United States are Hispanic,
said Ihsan Bagby, an author of the report and associate professor of
Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky. About 27 percent of American
converts are white, 64 percent are African-American and 3 percent are a
mixture of other backgrounds, according to "The Mosque in America: A
National Portrait…"

SEE: http://www.cair-net.org/mosquereport/

Some of what is now available for Hispanic converts comes from Latino
American Dawah Organization, a group started about five years ago in New
York City by Samantha Sanchez and five friends.

Sanchez, who is studying for a doctorate in cultural anthropology, had just
become a Muslim and was interested in discovering whether she and her
friends were the only Hispanic Muslims out there.

The organization has grown into a support network and an information
outreach that provides Qurans and pamphlets on Islam in Spanish and runs a
Web site, www.latinodawah.org. The group now has a chapter in Austin and is
working on chapters in Illinois, Massachusetts and Arizona
 
0 Replies
 
QKid
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2003 06:19 pm
Proof of God for all non-believers
Proof of existence of God.

The universe is large, but is still a 'finite' space. NO scientist could ever prove using hard facts that the universe has no bounds. In fact when they say the universe arose from a Big Bang and is expanding they inherently admit it is finite in size, otherwise it could not expand! There is nothing in reality which is unlimited. No matter how hard we try, man is unable to find anything unlimited around him. All he can perceive is the finite and limited.
A further attribute of everything around us is that they are all needy and dependent in order to continue existing. They are not self sustaining or independent. Man has needs. He has to satisfy in order to survive. He has organic needs. Man must eat and drink if he is to survive. If he does not he will die. We see need and dependency in plants and animals. They depend On other parts Of the food chain for their existence. The water cycle is dependent On the sun, which is dependent on the laws of the galaxies and of burning mass, and SO on... Nothing man can perceive is self-subsistent. So things exist, but do not have the power of existence. They cannot control when they die or when other bodies die. There is one fact that emerges from all this. If something is limited and finite, and does not have the power to be self-subsistent then it must have been created.
Applying this to everything we see will bring us to a conclusion. If everything in the universe is created because it has not the power of being in existence on its own, and is finite and limited, then there must be a Creator. This Creator by contrast has to be unlimited and not needy and dependent on anything to bring It into, or sustain It's existence.
The universe; the sum of finite and dependent objects is finite and dependent -but dependent on what? Dependent on something to start and sustain life, something to plan and develop life. The only rational and intellectual solution to the question Of creation is that there is a Creator which has accounted for all that we see and perceive. Rational tells us that nothing can be created without a creator. Ultimately there must be a Creator who is unlimited in every aspect.

Conclusion: Since everything in the universe is limited, then it must mean that it didnt exist at one point. Therefore it had to be created by a Creator (God).
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2003 06:23 pm
QKid,

You said the following twice and it's not going to be true through repitition:

"Conclusion: Since everything in the universe is limited, then it must mean that it didnt exist at one point. Therefore it had to be created by a Creator (God)."

That is a series of fallacies.

"Since everything in the universe is limited, then it must mean that it didnt exist at one point."

This is false.

"Therefore it had to be created by a Creator (God)."

This is also false.

Now yoyr God may well have created the universe but your statement is not logical.

"Must mean" and "therefore" are used fecklessly. Both are false statements, furthermore you start with a premise you do not prove "everything is limited".

That is a paradox that you can't prove.
0 Replies
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2003 08:02 pm
QKid, the only person you've convinced is yourself. Maybe you should be more concerned with why you yourself need convincing.
0 Replies
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Dec, 2003 08:11 pm
To Sam2
I feel prompted to make comments on two parts of your initial post here.

You gave the following as one of the reasons for the supposed rise in conversion to Islam:

Quote:
For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture.......They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearence.


This explanation is based more on societal views than religious ones. Would it not be preferential to have society's view of women change rather than have women change their mode of dress? As for those you mention who find it liberating to not have to conform to western standards...well I am at a loss there. It is a choice. I don't wear make-up or fashionable clothes (particularly revealing clothes) and I must confess I spend a bare minimum on my outside appearance. It has NOTHING to do with religion and everything to do with my personal choices. Every woman in free society has this choice.

Which leads me to another part of your post.

Quote:
Like the many women who shared my background, I would accuse Islam of being a sexist religion, discriminating, oppressing and giving men the greater privileges. All this coming from a person who did not even know Islam, one who had been blinded due to ignorance and had accepted this deliberately distorted definition of Islam.


Since you haven't included it, I can only assume, based on your comments, that you are a citizen of a western country, likely the USA. As such, you have freedoms that women in other countries do not. It is oppression in the name of religion that is the sexist part. I would agree that the Islamic religion per se is not sexist, but how it is practised in other countries can be and is sexist and oppressive.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 10:15 am
Institutionalized sexism in Islamic countries is a product of tribalism writ large, not the Quran.
0 Replies
 
 

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