57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 01:59 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
There are supposed to be tensions between the media and the government. That's why we have a guaranteed free press!


You’re absolutely right.

It is rare that complex and important questions can be answered as easily as checking a table in The Book of Solutions, and finding the precisely appropriate cell to use.

What is interesting, at least to me, in terms of this topic is that while I've seen (both in this forum and out in the real world) the argument that all government information needs to open to the world (with regretful acceptance of unfortunate "collateral damage"), I've not seen the reciprocal, that all government information needs to be kept secret and secure.

Other than the forays into conspiracy theories, the feckless nature of the Australian government and the peculiarities of Swedish sex law, (all extremely interesting subjects to themselves) the degree to which government information should be made known, not whether or not is should be made known at all, has been at the center of the debate.

I'm not sure how anyone has come to the conclusion that either there are no existing mechanisms to learn what our governments are doing or that none of them work, but this is a mistaken premise.

Any of us can provide a long list of the government secrets that have been made known to the public before anything like WikiLeaks entered the fray.

In reviewing what WikiLeaks has unearthed, how much of it has really pulled back the curtain of secrecy? What do you know now that you didn't know before the WikiLeaks release, and if the information has confirmed what you previously only suspected how will this certainty cause you to think and act in ways you didn't when you only suspected the truth?

Of what you may have learned, how much of it do you think could have, and should have been revealed by pre-WikiLeaks sources of information? If any, why do you think these sources failed?

It seems to me that many of the supporters of Assange and WikiLeaks are more enthralled by the notion of government transparency than confident in their ability to provide it.

One or two supporters have taken the full plunge and agreed that no information should be kept secret and if there is "collateral damage," so be it. I can't agree with that, but it’s an honest expression of their belief and, more importantly, it honestly acknowledges WikiLeaks for what it is.

Other supporters will agree that "Yes, some government secrets are necessary, but greater transparency is what is important."

I believe that once you accept that some government secrets are necessary you can't support the indiscriminate dumping of all information that is the WikiLeaks model.

Assange has attempted to sidestep the issue by providing direct links to major news outlets. In effect he is leaving the task of screening and editing this information to the NY Times, Der Spiegel et al. but the fact remain is that the information has been dumped. It's out there. It may be more difficult to comb it for goodies if one doesn't rely on the major news outlets as a filter, but it can be done, and the people who are willing to put the time and effort into doing so are probably looking for the things the NYT and Der Spiegel have decided to "responsibly" withhold from the public.

BTW-It seems to me that by taking this approach, Assange has seriously undermined any defense that he was acting as a journalist when he dumped the information.

There are complaints about the mainstream media's seeming insistence on inserting entertainment into the news, and to some extent they are valid, but the simple truth is that the consumers of news want entertainment as well. We can debate which came first the chicken or the egg, but the fact remains that people want more than just the facts.

We are drawn to stories with people in them.

A volcano erupts on a desert island and while volcanologists are having an absolute field day, the public takes a look at the fiery pictures, yawns and moves on. A volcano erupts in a populated area and there is 24-7 coverage by all news outlets, with millions glued to their TVs.

Look at how many people have been at the center of this story, and not because of secrets revealed about them.

There should be an on-going tension between "public officials' desire to protect official secrets and the news media's determination to expose the inner workings of government" because both sides have valid point of views and often honorable intentions. I simply don't believe that we are being failed by the mechanisms in place designed to expose government secrets, and I do not want to see this tension disappear because one side has overwhelmed the other.

Governments will not allow WikiLeaks to eliminate the tension by overwhelming their ability to keep secrets. To restore that balance they will make it that much tougher for our usual sources of information to operate. Believing that WikiLeaks has ushered us into a new world without government secrets and that the outcome of full transparency is inevitable are living in a fantasy world.

Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 02:08 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Governments will not allow WikiLeaks to eliminate the tension by overwhelming their ability to keep secrets. To restore that balance they will make it that much tougher for our usual sources of information to operate.


As I said earlier, this is a win-win for the black hat community.

The harder and more expensive you make it to keep things secret, the less secrets are kept. The more time and money people spend keeping secrets, the less effective their entire organization is.

For those who are against the secrecy state, contraction, increasing paranoia and increasing expense are features, not bugs.

Governments won't have a choice. If WL had access to some special technology or secret sources that nobody knew how to combat or find, they would actually be much LESS of a threat. But the problem is that there's nothing really special about Assange or the WL organization at all. Pretty much anyone can do this. The biggest fear of the secrecy state is that people will catch on to this, because the meme is hard to stop once it's in the wild.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 02:19 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
If you can be charged with a crime for overrumpling, what is the legaly permitted level of rumpling?


That which does not incommode the man on the Clapham omnibus.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 02:36 pm
@spendius,
Suppose the secret provisions to ensure we are properly managed are revealed and we are so overwhelmed with rage that we become the rabble we would obviously be if the provisions were not in place.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 02:47 pm
Michael Moore addresses Sweden

Quote:
** Sweden has the HIGHEST per capita number of reported rapes in Europe.

** This number of rapes has quadrupled in the last 20 years.

** The conviction rates? They have steadily DECREASED.

Axelsson says: "On April 23rd of this year, Carina Hägg and Nalin Pekgul (respectively MP and chairwoman of Social Democratic Women in Sweden) wrote in the Göteborgs [newspaper] that 'up to 90% of all reported rapes [in Sweden] never get to court.'"

Let me say that again: nine out of ten times, when women report they have been raped, you never even bother to start legal proceedings. No wonder that, according to the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, it is now statistically more likely that someone in Sweden will be sexually assaulted than that they will be robbed.

Message to rapists? Sweden loves you!


http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/dear-government-of-sweden
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 03:01 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I'm starting to wonder if you didn't, in fact, go with your Galt plans. Your posting here has increased about twenty-fold lately.

Cycloptichorn


Just trying to restore some balance to the forum.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 03:02 pm
@Setanta,
Your loss.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 03:17 pm
@CalamityJane,
That might be Cal because the people of Sweden are so good and law abiding that there was a danger of the panoply of bureaucracies concerned with them being bad going out of business. What better than a new set of crimes which were commonplace happenings but which can only be revealed to the authorities by the word of a woman trumping that of a man when she is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth cross my heart and hope to die. A pay back for witch-hunting which men have coming and fitting that it arise in an important bastion of liberal democracy.

A nation where the only witness for the prosecution might say --"he slipped it in, your Honour, God's Holy Bible, cross my heart and hope to die, when I wasn't looking" (in Swedish--perhaps Saab will translate) and is greeted by stern expressions, pursed lips, gasps of indrawn breath and profoundly serious shakings of the head.

BTW--It's a well known fact that women reporting they have been raped is not rape. And that in the other 10% of cases which are proceeded with there is other evidence to support the claim.

And what about the plight of those women, and I have come across some, who like to be forced. They think it romantic. No man is going to act that out for them if he's unsure he would be ungallant enough to reveal such a thing to an open court in his defence.

0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 03:19 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Balance via ballast is statically stable not dynamically stable. Better for people to move into the center (for discussion) and discuss overlap as opposed to moving outward and discussing disconnect.

I know many disagree with me on this point.

A
R
T
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 03:38 pm
NYT wrote:
From WikiLeaks Founder, a Barrage of Interviews
By RAVI SOMAIYA


LONDON — In a series of media appearances Thursday and Friday the WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange railed against what he called an “illegal” and “aggressive” investigation of him and his Web site by the United States and dismissed accusations of sexual misconduct in Sweden as “politically motivated.”

Free on bail after nine days in prison in Britain, where he is fighting extradition to Sweden, Mr. Assange said a United States espionage indictment against him was imminent. In earlier comments, he and his supporters had called the Swedish extradition proceeding a “holding” action intended to keep him within the law’s grasp while the United States completed its investigation.

Mr. Assange used his first hours out of Wandsworth Prison in London to start an apparent media campaign, giving interviews to the BBC, NBC, Britain’s Sky News, Independent Television News as well as a group of newspaper reporters while standing outside a snow-covered Ellingham Hall, the lavish country estate in eastern England to which a judge ruled he will be effectively confined as a condition of his $315,000 bail.

Wearing a green winter jacket, he told NBC he is enjoying being “out in the sun and out in the snow” after what he has called “solitary confinement in the bottom of a Victorian prison,” but that “this is not the beginning of the end,” of his legal travails, “but the end of the beginning.”

He told Sky News, “We heard reports yesterday that a secret indictment has been made against me in the United States,” speaking of assertions his lawyers had made in recent days that the United States would act soon to prosecute Mr. Assange over continued releases of classified American documents this year. The American attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., has said that an investigation into WikiLeaks is under way, but officials have declined to comment on its progress.

In several of the interviews Mr. Assange denounced the Swedish accusations, which center on claims of sexual misconduct against two women in Stockholm this summer, as a “smear campaign,” and complained to the BBC that his name had been unfairly leaked to a Swedish tabloid newspaper, Expressen.

He told the BBC that he suspects “a number of different interests, personal, domestic and international,” of being behind the campaign. He also implied that the European arrest warrant a prosecutor there issued last week, to bring him back to Sweden for questioning, might be related to “onward extradition to the United States.”

The Swedish prosecutors’ office, a lawyer for the women and the women themselves have denied any political aspect to the case. Lawyers for the Swedish government have also repeatedly urged British judges to separate WikiLeaks from the sexual misconduct accusations against Mr. Assange.

Mr. Assange, sounding determined, often speaking loudly over interviewers who tried to interrupt or divert him, told cameras that leaks, including those from a trove of 250,000 American diplomatic cables, would be undiminished by his travails. And, with his release, he told the BBC, the releases would “proceed in a faster manner.”

Ellingham Hall, owned by Vaughan Smith, the wealthy founder of a club for journalists in London, will be the base for those operations at least until the next hearing in British court Jan. 11. After arriving there last night, by armored Land Rover, Mr. Assange was, he said, fitted with an “Orwellian” electronic tag that under the conditions of his bail, confines him to a small area around Ellingham Hall. Mr. Assange, the court heard yesterday, must also meet daily with the police and abide by a strict curfew, an arrangement that he described as, “high-tech house arrest.”


source

Did you see it?

A
R
T
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 03:44 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
Message to rapists? Sweden loves you!


When you redefine rape to cover actions that used to be consider at worst ungentlemanly behaviors such as lying about your willingness to used a condom you are going to reduce all rapes convictions.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 03:48 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

Balance via ballast is statically stable not dynamically stable. Better for people to move into the center (for discussion) and discuss overlap as opposed to moving outward and discussing disconnect.

I know many disagree with me on this point.

A
R
T


The center is formed based upon the boundaries that are established.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 03:50 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Common grounds still needs gardening. We should all be chipping in. Do so helps understand where those boundaries actually are.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 04:51 pm
@failures art,
NYT wrote:
In several of the interviews Mr. Assange denounced the Swedish accusations, which center on claims of sexual misconduct against two women in Stockholm this summer, as a “smear campaign,” and complained to the BBC that his name had been unfairly leaked to a Swedish tabloid newspaper, Expressen.


An "unfair" leak? I thought all leaks were good and would save the world.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 04:59 pm
@wandeljw,
Kind of poetic. Nice catch.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 05:33 pm
@wandeljw,
We end up with an irony? LOL
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 05:34 pm
@wandeljw,
Yes, nice catch.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 05:40 pm
Of course, statements like these don't help their cause

Quote:
US officials regard European human rights standards as an "irritant", secret cables show, and have strongly objected to the safeguards which could protect WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange from extradition.

In a confidential cable from the US embassy in Strasbourg, US consul general Vincent Carver criticised the Council of Europe, the most authoritative human-rights body for European countries, for its stance against extraditions to America, as well as secret renditions and prisons used to hold terrorist suspects.


I am quoting the Guardian now, since DER SPIEGEL seems to be a facile source.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/wikileaks-european-human-rights-standards
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 05:54 pm
@CalamityJane,
There exists, in the real world, Cal, a genre of literature which is known in the trade, and more widely. as "bodice ripping". As in "it's a bodice ripper".

Would you be prepared to offer any explanations of it's popularity?
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 18 Dec, 2010 05:57 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
as well as secret renditions and prisons used to hold terrorist suspects.


Geeze, imagine that. This has gone too far. Next, those damn Europeans will be against the US torturing, raping and murdering innocents around the globe.
 

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