57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 04:31 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Even if we accept that the Western democracies are bad when it comes to secrecy, their badness doesn't come close to that of the states specified in WikiLeak's original mission statement, and so we can at least say that Assange's aim is off.


Having denied that your remark partook of a tu quoque fallacy, you end your response by reiterating it.

I doubt that Assange's aim is off so much as it is a case of fewer opportunities to find and leak information about smaller, more tightly controlled and repressive states. It must be a bitch to get information about, from and out of Algeria, for example. There will also be far fewer people privy to such information in a military controlled state such as that, and there may be a far less ramified IT infrastructure. A good deal of WikiLeaks material is only available because there are so many more opportunities for "secrets" to go missing in a technology obsessed West. The further one descends into tyrannical madness, the less likely it is that the information can be obtained. I doubt that there is any vast network of information technology in North Korea, and i suspect that the Mullahs and the Revolutionary Guard in Iran don't make policy, nor store the evidence of it electronically, for all that young Persians are wired these days.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 08:11 am
Quote:
WikiLeaks: Espionage? Journalism? Something else?
(Analysis, The Associated Press, December 1, 2010)

WASHINGTON — The government's decisions about whether or how to bring criminal charges against participants in the WikiLeaks disclosures are complicated by the very newness of Julian Assange's Internet-based outfit: Is it journalism or espionage or something in between?

Justice, State and Defense Department lawyers are discussing whether it might be possible to prosecute the WikiLeaks founder and others under the Espionage Act of 1917. They are debating whether the Espionage Act applies, and to whom. Other charges also might be possible, including theft of government property or receipt of stolen government property.

Rep. Peter King of New York called for Assange to be charged under the Espionage Act and asked whether WikiLeaks could be designated a terrorist organization.

But Assange has portrayed himself as a crusading journalist. He told ABC News by e-mail that his latest batch of State Department documents would expose "lying, corrupt and murderous leadership from Bahrain to Brazil." He told Time magazine he targets only "organizations that use secrecy to conceal unjust behavior."

Longtime Washington lawyer Plato Cacheris, who represented CIA official Aldrich Ames and other espionage defendants, said yesterday that Assange could argue he is protected by the First Amendment, a freedom of the press defense. "That would be one, certainly," Cacheris said.

Constrained by the First Amendment's free-press guarantees, the Justice Department has steered clear of prosecuting journalists for publishing leaked secrets. Leakers have occasionally been prosecuted, usually government workers charged under easier-to-prove statutes criminalizing the mishandling of classified documents.

But two leakers have faced Espionage Act charges, with mixed results.

The last leak that approached the size of the WikiLeaks releases was the Pentagon Papers during the Nixon administration. The Supreme Court slapped down President Richard Nixon's effort to stop newspapers from publishing those papers. But the leaker, ex-Pentagon analyst Daniel Ellsberg, was charged under the Espionage Act with unauthorized possession and theft of the papers. A federal judge threw out the charges because of government misconduct, including burglary of Ellsberg's psychiatrist's files by the White House "plumbers" unit.

The Reagan administration had more success against Samuel Loring Morison, a civilian intelligence analyst for the Navy and grandson of a famous U.S. historian. Morison was convicted under the Espionage Act and of theft of government property for supplying a British publication, Jane's Defence Weekly, with a U.S. satellite photo of a Russian aircraft carrier under construction in a Black Sea port. Dozens of news organizations filed friend-of-the-court briefs supporting Morison because he was a $5,000-a-year part-time editor with Jane's sister publication and thus arguably a journalist. Morison was sentenced to two years in prison.

But WikiLeaks has entered a space where no journalist has gone before. News organizations have often sought information, including government secrets, for specific stories and printed secrets that government workers delivered to them, but none has matched Assange's open worldwide invitation to send him any secret or confidential information a source can lay hands on.

Is WikiLeaks the leaker or merely the publisher?

"The courts have been somewhat reluctant to draw a line of demarcation between what we call mainstream media and everyone else," said Washington attorney Stan Brand. "If these people are publishing and exercising First Amendment rights, I don't know why they're less entitled to their First Amendment rights to publish."

But at a Nov. 29 news conference, Attorney General Eric Holder contrasted WikiLeaks with traditional news organizations, which he said acted responsibly in the matter even though several posted some classified material. Some news organizations consulted with the government in advance to avoid printing harmful material; Assange has claimed his efforts to do likewise were rebuffed.

"One can compare the way in which the various news organizations that have been involved in this have acted as opposed to the way in which WikiLeaks has," said Holder.

Some see openings for the government.

Assange "has gone a long way down the road of talking himself into a possible violation of the Espionage Act," First Amendment lawyer Floyd Abrams said on National Public Radio, noting that Assange has said leaks could bring down a U.S. administration.

Washington lawyer Bob Bittman expressed surprise that the Justice Department had not already charged Assange under the Espionage Act and with theft of government property over his earlier release of classified documents about U.S. military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Bittman said it was widely believed those disclosures harmed U.S. national security, in particular U.S. intelligence sources and methods, meeting the requirement in several sections of the act that there be either intent or reason to believe disclosure could injure the United States.

"These are not easy questions," said Washington lawyer Stephen Ryan, a former assistant U.S. attorney and former Senate Government Affairs Committee general counsel. Ryan said it would be legally respectable to argue Assange is a journalist protected by the First Amendment and never had a duty to protect U.S. secrets.

But Ryan added, "The flip side is whether he could be charged with aiding and abetting or conspiracy with an individual who did have a duty to protect those secrets."

On the question of conspiracy there's a legal difference between being a passive recipient of leaked material and being a prime mover egging on a prospective leaker, legal experts say.

Much could depend on what the investigation uncovers.

Army Pfc. Bradley Manning is being held in a maximum-security military brig at Quantico, Va., charged with leaking video of a 2007 U.S. Apache helicopter attack in Baghdad that killed a Reuters news photographer and his driver. WikiLeaks posted the video on its website in April.

Military investigators say Manning is a person of interest in the leak of nearly 77,000 Afghan war records WikiLeaks published online in July. Though Manning has not been charged in the latest release of internal U.S. government documents, WikiLeaks has hailed him as a hero.

Another obstacle would be getting Assange to the United States. His whereabouts are not publicly known.

In France, Interpol placed Assange on its most-wanted list yesterday after Sweden issued an arrest warrant against him as part of a drawn-out rape probe involving allegations he has denied. The Interpol "red notice" is likely to make international travel more difficult for him.

But even if Assange were charged and arrested in a country that has an extradition treaty with the United States, there could be problems extraditing him. The Espionage Act carries a maximum penalty of death, and nations with no death penalty often refuse to send defendants here if they face possible execution.

One renowned First Amendment and national,security lawyer, Duke law professor emeritus Michael Tigar, urged caution. "The U.S. reaction to all of this is rather overblown," Tigar said. "One should hesitate a long time before bringing a prosecution in a case like this. The First Amendment means that sometimes public expression makes the government squirm. ... That diplomats collect information, and are sometimes brutally candid, comes as no surprise to anybody."
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 08:24 am
@wandeljw,
I'd be really interested if you shared your views on that article, wandel.
Are the Wikileaks espionage, journalism, or something else, in your opinion?
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 08:30 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
One renowned First Amendment and national,security lawyer, Duke law professor emeritus Michael Tigar, urged caution. "The U.S. reaction to all of this is rather overblown," Tigar said. "One should hesitate a long time before bringing a prosecution in a case like this. The First Amendment means that sometimes public expression makes the government squirm. ... That diplomats collect information, and are sometimes brutally candid, comes as no surprise to anybody."


This makes sense to me.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 08:33 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Quote:

In France, Interpol placed Assange on its most-wanted list yesterday after Sweden issued an arrest warrant against him as part of a drawn-out rape probe involving allegations he has denied. The Interpol "red notice" is likely to make international travel more difficult for him.



That had always disturbed me a lot during the last times: Assange isn't and wasn't on Interpol's "most wanted list", but Interpol only put his name due to the Swedish warrant on the 'Red Notice List':

Quote:
An Interpol Red Notice is not an international arrest warrant.

These Interpol 'Red Notices' represent only a tiny fraction of the number of red notices issued by Interpol.

The persons concerned are wanted by national jurisdictions (or the International Criminal Tribunals, where appropriate) and Interpol's role is to assist the national police forces in identifying or locating those persons with a view to their arrest and extradition.

These red notices allow the warrant to be circulated worldwide with the request that the wanted person be arrested with a view to extradition.

A distinction is drawn between two types of red notice: the first type is based on an arrest warrant and is issued for a person wanted for prosecution; the second type is based on a court decision for a person wanted to serve a sentence.
Source: Interpol
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 08:52 am
@wandeljw,
Maybe the government should claim a copyright on the cables and hire the RIAA to go after the wikileaks people.

What is it 700,000 dollars per song or cable?

Hell you could have the scienotology cult aid in this as they surely know how to used the copyrights laws to defend their secrets and punish secret leakers.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 08:56 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I share your concerns, Walter.

There seems to be quite a lot of confusion between Interpol's "red notice" for Julian Assange's apprehension regarding a warrent for "sex charges" (strongly disputed by his legal team) in Sweden & the existence of any formal charges against him for his Wikileaks activities. Two entirely different issues.

I think it needs to be stated yet again that an Interpol red notice does NOT imply guilt of the person whose apprehension has been sought. The person is considered innocent until any charges are proved against them in a court of law.

It is also highly unusual (possibly unique?) for any person to be on Interpol's red list for this type of reason.





failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 08:57 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

How do you feel about Daniel Ellsberg's position that the oath to protect the constitution supercedes the duty to protect lies?

Seems pretty clear to me. I agree.

What is protected is not just lies though. I hope Ellsburg acknowledges that.

A
R
T
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 08:58 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

I'd be really interested if you shared your views on that article, wandel.
Are the Wikileaks espionage, journalism, or something else, in your opinion?


To me they are journalism, but irresponsible journalism. Wikileaks needs to have a better designed set of standards. I agree with freedom of information, but ALL of our freedoms require responsibility.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:01 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

BillW wrote:

There is a centrist point - do you publish the code to the doomsday button?


The solution to any problem is almost never to do the exact opposite of what you were doing before.

Cycloptichorn

If the opposite of what we were doing before was having too much secrecy, then you acknowledge the possibility of there not being enough. I'm interested in how far you'd take a society of openness, because it sounds like you want to do exactly as you've written above: Do the exact opposite.

I encourage you to not adopt a swinging pendulum model here. I think it's overly simplistic.

A
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T
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:06 am
@wandeljw,
I am completely in favour of freedom of information , too.
And I'm grateful to Wikileaks for access to information that was previously unavailable, particularly regarding my own country.
But what "better set of standards" would you suggest Wikleaks should have?
How do you think the release of this massive amount of documents have been handled better than it has been handled?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:13 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
I think it needs to be stated yet again that an Interpol red notice does NOT imply guilt of the person whose apprehension has been sought. The person is considered innocent until any charges are proved against them in a court of law.


From the related interpol website:

Quote:
http://i55.tinypic.com/25rmj34.jpg
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Yes indeed.
I posted that earlier, Walter.
But it certainly bears repeating.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:16 am
@failures art,
Of course. And some things that are protected shouldn't be leaked. I think that the distinction between a leaker and a whistleblower that John Dean was making here.

I haven't heard Ellsburg say that absolute transparency is an ideal. I think he has been quite clear that his battle was one of conscience between protecting a lie that would result in the death of many (Americans and others) and living up to his oath to protect and preserve the Constitution. He has called for others to do the same, but I've never heard that he's called for absolute transparency.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:18 am
@JPB,
That is my clear impression, too, JPB.
After watching a couple of video interviews with him which were posted to this thread.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:32 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
How do you think the release of this massive amount of documents have been handled better than it has been handled?


...by not releasing them in massive amounts. Smile
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:36 am
@wandeljw,
Razz

In dribbles, then? Wink
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:42 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
Think back to before there was a WikiLeaks. If I asked you how to obtain the degree of transparency you desire in our society, are you going to tell me that your answer would have been to wait for a group of hackers to come along and collect sensitive information and then release it as their leader sees fit? I doubt it.

No, of course, not.
I would far have preferred that my government had been far more transparent & honest in the first place.
In other words, act as a government which is far more accountable to the people who elected it. That's how governments are supposed to work in a democracy.
If it had acted in this way then there would be no need for leaks for us to be properly informed. Simple as that.

So you acknowledge the true form of transparent government. We don't "need" leeks, but leaks are simply what is going to happen as long as we don't work towards the real goals; the ones that require actual work and accountability.

WikiLeaks may give you some of the information you are entitled to, but it brings us no closer to the type of transparent government where you get all of the information you are entitled to. If you are truly an advocate for more openness, spend less time praising WL, and more inspecting what you do to move towards what you acknowledge would have been a better goal prior to the existence of WL.

msolga wrote:

Quote:
It seems that the stigma grows that all that is secret is shameful, and that's bullshit.

I'd argue that far too much unnecessary secrecy has been the problem.
I have no problem, for example, with sensitive internal security measures to protect the public remaining secret. Why would I?
The "stigma", as you put it, is more that we don't know nearly enough about what our governments are saying & doing.Things that we are entitled to know.
That is why some of the previously secret information is causing those governments such severe embarrassment. In some instances it is now clear that we have been lied to. Governments saying one thing to its citizens, while doing entirely different things. Can you not understand that this might a source of concern, or alarm?

You're repeating what I said. I said that things are out of balance in terms of secracy. Things can be unbalanced in many ways msolga. WL is a reaction to one form of unbalance, it's not the ballast to level things off.

msolga wrote:

Quote:
... I'm saying that in your lessons-learned great open society, obviously there is no need for any state to ever keep their cables private. So why doesn't some state stand up an be the first to hold up this great torch of the open society and say: "We heard you world! Here's the key to the vault!"

I somehow suspect that the truth is rather that no state will do so. Better to play damage control and suggest that diplomacy is only dirty when the US is involved.

Of course no state will do so. And we will never have access to the whole truth.

That's a self-perpetuating argument. Why won't you have the whole truth ever?

msolga wrote:

The point is, these leaks are about our governments' dealings with the most powerful government in the world today. Which happens to be the US at the moment. In the future, leaks might be about our governments' dealings with China ..

So your policy is waiting?

Why not demand those documents now? What I'm getting at is the reliance on WL (or rather leaker and whistle-blowers) is always retroactive. If you are concerned with Australia's doing with the US (or in the future China), then what are you doing to create openness on the front end? Where is the proactive measures?

WL is the lazy way out.

msolga wrote:

If any of you choose to to see the reactions to the leaks from those of us from other countries as purely "anti-US" then you'd be wrong. Well definitely in my case, anyway. It is not just a convenient opportunity to bash the US. It is about finally finding out about our own have said & done, about (at times) our government's duplicity, about the integrity of our governments & how they have represented our interests with the most powerful & influential government in the world today.

I don't care if it's anti-US or not. That's not the origin of my skepticism about WL.

I think lots of the information they are getting out is good.

That said, they have horded information and are using it for personal leverage. I'd have the same objections if that information was about Mexico, Canada, or Australia.

msolga wrote:

I would argue that our concerns are very valid ones, in the light of what we are learning from official documentation. It shouldn't be all that surprising reactions to the Wikileaks from countries like say, Australia, are often quite different to the reactions from Americans. It's because the issues & concerns are quite different to those raised in the US. What is in the US government's interests, in other words, is not automatically identical to our interests.

I think your concerns are valid, don't worry Olga.

What are the "reactions" in you opinion?

It could be as you say that the difference in reaction could be because the interests differ between countries. There's a good argument for that, but acknowledge that the difference could also be that the effect is different. Certainly a different reaction would be understandable.

Think back several months to the whole embarrassment from the KFC cricket commercials. The Aussies on the board here were very adamant about making sure their country wasn't defamed and that others didn't think they were racists. That thread made for a very good dialog on cultural sensibilities and different national sensitivities. Part of the reactions to this being different was because our cultures viewed this topic differently, but another part was that the embarrassment was not symmetrical. Many Aussies seemed very worried that they the Americans (or whoever) would think they were racists.

I understand the gravity of the KFC commercial is not where in comparison to the issues of WL. I'm only drawing a comparison to people reactions and how they vary based on interest and how it effected them personally.

I'm fairly positive that your interests line up with my own quite well. I am not the US, and you are not Australia. I doubt either of our interests line up with our government's congruently.

A
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failures art
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:47 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
You post illustrates the public's relationship with the information. Having now the existence of WL, you've come to assume that leaks are the way things could be prevented.


Not at all, Art.
I said (as you quoted)
Quote:
I would have welcomed those leaks, if they had occurred.
They might have made a real difference.


I haven't said that leaks would prevent anything at all.


(I wish you'd read a bit more carefully & stop putting words into my mouth.)


Care to explain what "real difference" they would have made if not to prevent something? Can you give an example? You're contradicting yourself.

If you believe I'm putting words in your mouth, I'm sorry. If I misunderstand you, please clarify. As a return request, you should not be putting words in my own. You've said I've argued against transparency. That is not true.

The idea that if one is not on board with WL meaning that they are not for transparency is false.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Dec, 2010 09:50 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
To me they are journalism, but irresponsible journalism. Wikileaks needs to have a better designed set of standards. I agree with freedom of information, but ALL of our freedoms require responsibility.


That just means anything anybody wants it to mean. It's empty talk.

But it sounds good I must admit.
0 Replies
 
 

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