@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Quote:Think back to before there was a WikiLeaks. If I asked you how to obtain the degree of transparency you desire in our society, are you going to tell me that your answer would have been to wait for a group of hackers to come along and collect sensitive information and then release it as their leader sees fit? I doubt it.
No, of course, not.
I would
far have preferred that my government had been far more transparent & honest in the first place.
In other words, act as a government which is far more accountable to the people who elected it. That's how governments are supposed to work in a democracy.
If it had acted in this way then there would be
no need for leaks for us to be properly informed. Simple as that.
So you acknowledge the true form of transparent government. We don't "need" leeks, but leaks are simply what is going to happen as long as we don't work towards the real goals; the ones that require actual work and accountability.
WikiLeaks may give you
some of the information you are entitled to, but it brings us no closer to the type of transparent government where you get all of the information you are entitled to. If you are truly an advocate for more openness, spend less time praising WL, and more inspecting what you do to move towards what you acknowledge would have been a better goal prior to the existence of WL.
msolga wrote:
Quote:It seems that the stigma grows that all that is secret is shameful, and that's bullshit.
I'd argue that far too much
unnecessary secrecy has been the problem.
I have no problem, for example, with sensitive internal security measures to protect the public remaining secret. Why would I?
The "stigma", as you put it, is more that we don't know
nearly enough about what our governments are saying & doing.Things that we are
entitled to know.
That is why some of the previously secret information is causing those governments such severe embarrassment. In some instances it is now clear that we have been lied to. Governments saying one thing to its citizens, while doing entirely different things. Can you not understand that this might a source of concern, or alarm?
You're repeating what I said. I said that things are out of balance in terms of secracy. Things can be unbalanced in many ways msolga. WL is a reaction to one form of unbalance, it's not the ballast to level things off.
msolga wrote:
Quote:... I'm saying that in your lessons-learned great open society, obviously there is no need for any state to ever keep their cables private. So why doesn't some state stand up an be the first to hold up this great torch of the open society and say: "We heard you world! Here's the key to the vault!"
I somehow suspect that the truth is rather that no state will do so. Better to play damage control and suggest that diplomacy is only dirty when the US is involved.
Of course no state will do so. And we will never have access to the whole truth.
That's a self-perpetuating argument. Why won't you have the whole truth
ever?
msolga wrote:
The point is, these leaks are about our governments' dealings with the most powerful government in the world today. Which happens to be the US at the moment. In the future, leaks might be about our governments' dealings with China ..
So your policy is waiting?
Why not demand those documents now? What I'm getting at is the reliance on WL (or rather leaker and whistle-blowers) is always retroactive. If you are concerned with Australia's doing with the US (or in the future China), then what are you doing to create openness on the front end? Where is the proactive measures?
WL is the lazy way out.
msolga wrote:
If any of you choose to to see the reactions to the leaks from those of us from other countries as purely "anti-US" then you'd be wrong. Well definitely in my case, anyway. It is not just a convenient opportunity to bash the US. It is about finally finding out about our own have said & done, about (at times) our government's duplicity, about the integrity of our governments & how they have represented our interests with the most powerful & influential government in the world today.
I don't care if it's anti-US or not. That's not the origin of my skepticism about WL.
I think lots of the information they are getting out is good.
That said, they have horded information and are using it for personal leverage. I'd have the same objections if that information was about Mexico, Canada, or Australia.
msolga wrote:
I would argue that our concerns are very valid ones, in the light of what we are learning from official documentation. It shouldn't be all that surprising reactions to the Wikileaks from countries like say, Australia, are often quite different to the reactions from Americans. It's because the issues & concerns are quite different to those raised in the US. What is in the US government's interests, in other words, is not automatically identical to our interests.
I think your concerns are valid, don't worry Olga.
What are the "reactions" in you opinion?
It could be as you say that the difference in reaction could be because the interests differ between countries. There's a good argument for that, but acknowledge that the difference could also be that the effect is different. Certainly a different reaction would be understandable.
Think back several months to the whole embarrassment from the KFC cricket commercials. The Aussies on the board here were very adamant about making sure their country wasn't defamed and that others didn't think they were racists. That thread made for a very good dialog on cultural sensibilities and different national sensitivities. Part of the reactions to this being different was because our cultures viewed this topic differently, but another part was that the embarrassment was not symmetrical. Many Aussies seemed very worried that they the Americans (or whoever) would think they were racists.
I understand the gravity of the KFC commercial is not where in comparison to the issues of WL. I'm only drawing a comparison to people reactions and how they vary based on interest and how it effected them personally.
I'm fairly positive that your interests line up with my own quite well. I am not the US, and you are not Australia. I doubt either of our interests line up with our government's congruently.
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