57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:15 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

You guys, Finn and BillRM, are absolutely revisionist retards. The concept of War Crimes is 'obscene'? You guys are obscene.



Now hinge, remember how you want us all to **** Hate.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:17 pm
@failures art,
I could talk about this. My father had a way up there top secret clearance. Someone under him showed a photo at a party. Loss of clearance followed.
I've asked, re freedom of information.. I saved the response for a while, in irony, pages of black marking. In some of his last years he tried to clear his name, an apparent doddering person.

He didn't show that photo. Probably ran a too sloppy situation. I have a photo of him in a pentagon meeting rubbing his eyes.

Sixty years later, I think whatever the person at the party showed would have been useful for the world. Or not. I take it as a photo into Baker, a guess. The world seems to like bombs.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:18 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Beyond the shadow of a doubt, Finn's stupidest post ever. But there'll be no one to call him on it because those honest people, like Cycloptichorn, don't want to give me "satisfaction".

So it goes on, the lies issue from the USA, citizens lie to themselves and their children and make apologies for war crimes and more innocents die. What for? Greed, simple greed. As if the USA doesn't already have enough.

This, from Finn, is what real honest fair kind Americans want for their country? This is what all those stories of honesty, bravery, good will towards man, generosity, empathy, ... boil down to, a curt dismissal of all that America is supposed to be. Is America just an empty B-grade movie?

I'll address Finn, that brave man who hides himself away in the 'ignore' in another post.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:25 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Now hinge, remember how you want us all to **** Hate.


I'm somewhat relieved to see that Finn is losing it. Not in the sense that I like to see this or want to make fun of those with mental problems. I'm just "happy" that those comments came from a man who is obviously not in control of his mental faculties.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:46 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
what you've heard all your life in your little echo chamber.
You've idnetified the problem, you have just failed to attribute it to yourself.
Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:47 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
He's certainly not been withholding information
You know him in the biblical sense ???? Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:49 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Why do you go on about WikiLeaks and say nothing about the other media that has this same info and is making tons of money off it?
Why do you go on about the USA and not the real war criminal nations that do worse ?
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:53 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
The economic welfare of the USA is not the concern of WLs or of the people or countries that are not the USA.
The security of the USA is not the concern of you or of the people or countries that are not the USA. may I quote from you ?
Quote:
How such a simple fact could escape you is truly puzzling
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:54 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Why do you go on about the USA and not the real war criminal nations that do worse ?


Because he have a bug up his ass concerning the US I would think.

Likely he is a Canadian as they all seem to have the same damn bug up their rear ends.

You can get them to crawl away if you bring up how they was taking native children away from their families as last as the 1960s.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:56 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Always good to hear your propagan, umm your comm
How's life in the Gaza strip ? The propaganda department paying well ?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:57 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The concept of War Crimes requires there to be laws or rules of War. Laws of War are intended to enable wars


This you know to be a lie, yet you still trot it out, Finn. What does that say about you?

Quote:
The concept of "war crimes" is also a means by which the victor gets to take revenge on the foe that he has just defeated.


You're right, for once. And that's just what the USA did, in spades. In fact, as noble as the USA made those trials out to be, and there were some valuable precedents set, they were also exercises in rank hypocrisy. But you've already noted that.

But beyond simply taking revenge, what of those who allowed war criminals an out in order to profit from their evil secrets?

Could someone ask Finn that question so that he doesn't have to pretend he doesn't read my posts?

Quote:
With the advent of mechanized war the chances of "collateral damage" only increased, and today's "smart" weaponry has reduced those chances only modestly.


Another piece of honesty; two in one day, in one post. Better be careful with your reputation, Finn.

Dollars to donuts, we could find a post from Finn way back at the start of the illegal invasion of I or A where Finn was singing the praises of the US military for its care in avoiding civilian casualties.

Now, when even Finn cannot deny the truth, he goes to the Hawkeye/BillRM defense of US war crimes.

Quote:
In fact, in today's, asymmetrical confrontations one side often incorporates in their war strategy the likelihood that engagement will result in civilian deaths as a political weapon to use against their opponent. The charge of War Crimes has become a potent weapon in the public relations front of ongoing hostilities. The Palestinians have become masters in this Art of War.


Don't point fingers, Finn. This isn't simply a matter of "today's confrontations", as my posting Re: the Philippines, Vietnam, Korea [was it??]
shows. Attacks on civilians has always been the policy of the USA. If it wasn't so, it would be isolated incidents. We, even you now know that isn't the case.

But, it bears repeating;

Quote:
Civilians die during war, everyone knows that, but not all of the dead civilians are mere "collateral damage." In many cases - particularly when invasions provoke guerilla warfare - civilians are perceived as the enemy and are treated as such. This practice stands in defiance of the Geneva Conventions. Article 50 states: "In case of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered a civilian . . . The civilian population and individual civilians shall enjoy general protection against dangers arising from military operations . . . Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited." In addition, the Principles of the Nuremberg Tribunal define "crimes against humanity" as: "Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population."

Examples of civilians killed by the American military could fill volumes. For the purposes of this article, three Asian nations will serve as examples.

Philippines

In the aftermath of the Spanish-American War, the U.S. fought a brutal war of conquest against Filipinos. By 1900, more than 75,000 American troops - three quarters of the entire U.S. Army - were sent to the Philippines. In the face of this overwhelming show of force, the Filipinos turned to guerrilla warfare.

The February 5, 1901 edition of the New York World shed some light on the U.S. response to Filipino guerilla tactics: "Our soldiers here and there resort to terrible measures with the natives. Captains and lieutenants are sometimes judges, sheriffs and executioners. 'I don't want any more prisoners sent into Manila' was the verbal order from the Governor-General three months ago. It is now the custom to avenge the death of an American soldier by burning to the ground all the houses, and killing right and left the natives who are only suspects." In an eerie presaging of Vietnam's hamlets, Filipino villagers were herded into concentration camps called "reconcentrados."

Captive Filipino soldiers and civilians alike were submitted to the "water cure." According to the Philippine-American War Centennial Initiative, this method "consisted of forcing four or five gallons of water down the throat of the captive whose body becomes an object frightful to contemplate, and then squeezing it by kneeling on his stomach. The process was repeated until the 'amigo' talked or died." And if those amigos struck back, the U.S. was ready to up the ante. When a U.S. platoon was wiped out in an ambush, Brig. Gen. Jacob W. Smith, a veteran of the Wounded Knee massacre, issued orders to kill "all persons of 10 years and older."

"The interior of Samar must be made a howling wilderness," Smith declared. "I want no prisoners, I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better it will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States."

"The My Lai massacre had its predecessor in the Philippines in 1906," says Howard Zinn. "The American army attacked a group of 600 Moros in southern Philippines - men, women, and children living in very primitive conditions, who had no modern weapons. The American army attacked them with modern weapons, wiped out every last one of these 600 men, women, and children." The commanding officer responsible for this war crime received a telegram of congratulations from Theodore Roosevelt.

Korea

"On summer nights when the breeze is blowing, I can still hear their cries, the little kids screaming," said Edward Daily. This U.S. Army veteran of the Korean War was talking about the killing of hundreds of refugees, mostly women, children and old men at No Gun Ri in Korea on July 26-29, 1950.

"According to Korean survivors' and victims' relatives," says Norm Dixon in Green Left Weekly, "following a surprise U.S. air raid that killed about 100 villagers who had been evacuated from their village by U.S. troops, 300 other villagers, overwhelmingly women, children and old men, had taken refuge in a narrow culvert beneath the bridge."

"The bloody atrocity at No Gun Ri, a hamlet 100 miles south of Seoul, has been known in South Korea for decades," adds journalist Esther Galen, "but a series of pro-U.S. military dictatorships suppressed any public protest or investigation."

The incident came to light when veterans of the U.S. Army First Cavalry Division told their stories to the Associated Press in 1999. Veterans of No Gun Ri told AP that Captain Melbourne C. Chandler, "after speaking to superior officers by radio, ordered machine-gunners from his heavy weapons company to set up near the bridge tunnel openings and open fire. U.S. commanders had claimed there were 'infiltrators' among the villagers." Chandler told his men: "The hell with all those people. Let's get rid of all of them."

Survivors of the massacre told of the experience. Park Hee-sook, a girl of 16 in 1950, said, "I can still hear the moans of women dying in a pool of blood. Children cried and clung to their dead mothers." Chun Choon Ja, 12 years old at the time, said the U.S. troops, "dug into positions over hundreds of yards of hilly terrain" where they could fire on the civilians. "The American soldiers played with our lives like boys playing with flies," said Chun.

"The U.S. Armed Forces Claims Service told AP that there was no evidence that the First Cavalry Division was in the area," Dixon says. "AP reporters using map coordinates from declassified documents have established that four First Cavalry Division battalions were in the area at the time."

The AP investigation unearthed other U.S. war crimes against Korean civilians. "On August 3, 1950," Galen reports, "a U.S. general and other army officers ordered the destruction of two bridges, as South Korean refugees streamed across, killing hundreds of civilians. One bridge ran across the Naktong River at Waegwan." That same day, 7,000 pounds of explosives were used to destroy a steel-girder bridge crowded with "women and children, old men, and ox carts with their belongings."

"These two incidents were not aberrations or the product of exceptional circumstances, but rather characteristic of the entire American military intervention in Korea from 1950 to 1953, one of the bloodiest chapters in U.S. history," says Galen.

Un-indicted war criminal and U.S. Air Force commander in Korea, General Curtis LeMay concurred with this observation, boasting that U.S. warplanes "killed off 20 percent of the population of Korea as direct casualties of war, or from starvation and exposure."

Vietnam

"In all my years in the Army I was never taught that communists were human beings," said Lt. William Calley. "We were there to kill ideology carried by - I don't know - pawns, blobs of flesh. I was there to destroy communism. We never conceived of people, men, women, children, babies."

The date was March 16, 1968. "Under the command of Lieutenant William L. Calley, Charlie Company of the Americal Division's Eleventh Infantry had 'nebulous orders' from its company commander, Captin Ernest Medina, to 'clean the village out'," explains historian Kenneth C. Davis. All they found at My Lai were women, children, and old men . . . no weapons, no signs of enemy soldiers. Calley ordered villagers to be killed and their huts destroyed. Women and girls were raped before they were machine-gunned. By the end of the massacre, hundreds of villagers were dead.

When the truth about My Lai was eventually revealed, Henry Kissinger sent a note to White House Chief of Staff H.R. Haldeman: "Now that the cat is out of the bag, I recommend keeping the President and the White house out of the matter entirely." Nixon, for his part, blamed the New York Times - what he called "dirty rotten Jews from New York" - for covering the story. Perhaps what had the White House on edge was best articulated by Colonel Oran Henderson, charged with covering-up the My Lai killings, who explained in 1971: "Every unit of brigade size has its My Lai hidden someplace."

"This was not the only crime against civilians in Vietnam," Davis states. "It was not uncommon to see GIs use their Zippo lighters to torch an entire village." Indeed, My Lai was not an aberration. On the very same day that Lt. Calley entered into infamy, another U.S. Army company entered My Khe (a sister subhamlet of My Lai) and killed a reported 90 peasants. One of the My Khe veterans later said, "What we were doing was being done all over."

In his book, Nuremberg and Vietnam: An American Tragedy, Telford Taylor, chief United States prosecutor at Nuremberg, suggested that General William Westmoreland and others in the Johnson administration could be found guilty of war crimes under criteria established at Nuremberg.








Quote:
Frankly, there seems to be too much evidence that war is with us to stay and even when its full horror and tragedy is made clear, we still resort to it,


The 'we' being the USA. But the problem is, "its full horror and tragedy" have never been made clear, especially to Americans. That leads us back to WLs and your sordid efforts to maintain Americans' ignorance of their countries massive war crimes.

Quote:
In any case plaintive cries from anguished souls about the horror of war crimes and their perpetrators might be taken more seriously if they weren't always directed at only one nation or alliance of nations and skipped all the attending ideological rants as well.


Nice try. Where was all this equanimity and fairness during the cold war and after? Are you seriously trying to suggest that the USA and those of the USA have been fair in pointing out all nations responsible for crimes against humanity?

Let me point out, AGAIN, that you, Finn, the standard bearer of truth, seek refuge from these truths in a little snake hole called Ignore.





0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:57 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Isn't the first rule of propaganda that you make your missives coherent?
hahahahaahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaaa.... Very Happy Shocked Very Happy Oh ****......that is FUNNY !!!!
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 05:59 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
What you mean is that they kowtow to the government, they hide the crimes of government.
What you mean is you kowtow to anyone in opposition to the wests interests, you hide their war crimes.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 06:00 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
One word, United States of America.
One word, JoinTalibanTerrorism
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 06:02 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You really don't live in the real world!
Oh God !!!This is GREAT stuff!!!!! Who writes these for you ???? My sides hurt from laughing...... Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 06:05 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
the USA gave any reasoned person the opportunity to point them out.
So where do you fit into all this ?????
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  4  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 06:08 pm
So I drag out a suitcase.

First, the flag.

Letters - I've read them before.

some patches.

well, the heart breaks.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 06:08 pm
@Ionus,
When the truth about My Lai was eventually revealed, Henry Kissinger sent a note to White House Chief of Staff H.R. Haldeman: "Now that the cat is out of the bag, I recommend keeping the President and the White house out of the matter entirely." Nixon, for his part, blamed the New York Times - what he called "dirty rotten Jews from New York" - for covering the story. Perhaps what had the White House on edge was best articulated by Colonel Oran Henderson, charged with covering-up the My Lai killings, who explained in 1971: "Every unit of brigade size has its My Lai hidden someplace."

"This was not the only crime against civilians in Vietnam," Davis states. "It was not uncommon to see GIs use their Zippo lighters to torch an entire village." Indeed, My Lai was not an aberration. On the very same day that Lt. Calley entered into infamy, another U.S. Army company entered My Khe (a sister subhamlet of My Lai) and killed a reported 90 peasants. One of the My Khe veterans later said, "What we were doing was being done all over."

In his book, Nuremberg and Vietnam: An American Tragedy, Telford Taylor, chief United States prosecutor at Nuremberg, suggested that General William Westmoreland and others in the Johnson administration could be found guilty of war crimes under criteria established at Nuremberg.

The information presented within this article is not buried (except in mounds of spin) by the guilty. Anyone with a search engine or a library card can construct a convincing war crimes case against the United States. Acutely aware of this reality, Washington has refused to sign on to the recently proposed International Criminal Court (ICC).

Established by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court on July 17, 1998, the ICC is the "first ever permanent, treaty based, international criminal court established to promote the rule of law and ensure that the gravest international crimes do not go unpunished."

The United States is not happy about the ICC and Human Rights Watch explains why: "The Bush administration is attempting to negotiate bilateral impunity agreements with numerous countries around the globe. The goal of these agreements is to exempt U.S. military and civilian personnel from the jurisdiction of the ICC."

The need to protect its soldiers is the common U.S. justification for not signing on, but an "anonymous top Bush official," quoted in the Sept. 7, 2002 New York Times, articulated the real reasons: "The soldiers are like the capillaries; the top public officials - President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld, Secretary Powell - they are at the heart of our concern."

Currently the under secretary of state for arms control and international security, John Bolton, further explained the U.S. position in 1998. "Much of the media attention to the American negotiating position on the ICC concentrated on the risks perceived by the Pentagon to American peacekeepers stationed around the world," said Bolton, in his role as head of the American Enterprise Institute. "Our real concern should be for the president and his top advisers. The definition of 'war crimes' includes, for example: 'intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities.'"
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 06:19 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Is it Ok if I hate fucks?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Dec, 2010 06:21 pm
@JTT,
You dont realise how mentally ill you are.

Not a mention of the helicopter pilot who landed in between some fleeing civilians and soldiers shooting at them. Not a word about how the civlians in the USA reacted. Not a word about North Vietnam's War Crimes.

I have some knowledge of mental health issues and I want you to seek help. You are not well.
 

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