57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 04:26 pm
Quote:
The Wikileaks sex files:
How two one-night stands sparked a worldwide hunt for Julian Assange

By Richard Pendlebury

December 07, 2010 "Daily Mail" -- A winter morning in backwoods Scandinavia and the chime of a church bell drifts across the snowbound town of Enkoping. Does it also toll for WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange?

Today, this small industrial centre, 40 miles west of Stockholm, remains best-known — if known at all — as the birthplace of the ­adjustable spanner.

But if extradition proceedings involving ­Britain are successful, it could soon be rather more celebrated — by the U.S. government at least — as the place where Mr Assange made a ­catastrophic error.

Here, in a first-floor flat in a dreary apartment block, the mastermind behind the leak of more than 250,000 classified U.S. diplomatic cables this month slept with a female admirer whom he had just met at a seminar. She subsequently made a complaint to police.

As a result, Assange, believed to be in hiding in England, faces a criminal prosecution and ­possibly jail. Last night, a European Arrest ­Warrant was given by Interpol to Scotland Yard.

The Stockholm police want to question him regarding the possible rape of a woman and separate allegations from another Swedish admirer, with whom he was having a concurrent fling. But there remains a huge question mark over the evidence. Many people believe that the 39-year-old ­Australian-born whistleblower is the victim of a U.S. government dirty tricks campaign.

...

[/http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27016.htmquote]
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 04:30 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
Sorry Hawk I don't mean that it's not worth discussing, just not on the Wikileaks thread. If the US then does an extradition order then I think its relevant to the thread. And lets face it, you do like to hijack a thread riding on your hobby horse.
One of the main tools used by the state to bring down wikileaks is highly relavant to the wikileaks thread...If the state has no moral right to use the tool that it is using, if it cares more about getting what it feels is in its best interest than it does in providing justice for the people, then we have a bigger problem than we started with.
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 04:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
Except there is no causal link between Julian Assange being charged with anything not directly relating to wikileaks and the continued operation of wikileaks.

The issues wikileaks raises have to be dealt with regardless of Julian Assange's personal life.

Let's just say Assange had unpaid speeding fines - or armed robbery charge, or spat on the sidewalk - would you be here?

Quote:
if it cares more about getting what it feels is in its best interest than it does in providing justice for the people, then we have a bigger problem than we started with

Can't argue with your last sentence - but clearly we've already crossed that bridge.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 04:50 pm
Quote:
Don't Shoot Messenger for Revealing Uncomfortable Truths

WIKILEAKS deserves protection, not threats and attacks.

By Julian Assange

December 07, 2010 "The Australian" --IN 1958 a young Rupert Murdoch, then owner and editor of Adelaide's The News, wrote: "In the race between secrecy and truth, it seems inevitable that truth will always win."

His observation perhaps reflected his father Keith Murdoch's expose that Australian troops were being needlessly sacrificed by incompetent British commanders on the shores of Gallipoli. The British tried to shut him up but Keith Murdoch would not be silenced and his efforts led to the termination of the disastrous Gallipoli campaign.

Nearly a century later, WikiLeaks is also fearlessly publishing facts that need to be made public.

I grew up in a Queensland country town where people spoke their minds bluntly. They distrusted big government as something that could be corrupted if not watched carefully. The dark days of corruption in the Queensland government before the Fitzgerald inquiry are testimony to what happens when the politicians gag the media from reporting the truth.

These things have stayed with me. WikiLeaks was created around these core values. The idea, conceived in Australia, was to use internet technologies in new ways to report the truth.

WikiLeaks coined a new type of journalism: scientific journalism. We work with other media outlets to bring people the news, but also to prove it is true. Scientific journalism allows you to read a news story, then to click online to see the original document it is based on. That way you can judge for yourself: Is the story true? Did the journalist report it accurately?

Democratic societies need a strong media and WikiLeaks is part of that media. The media helps keep government honest. WikiLeaks has revealed some hard truths about the Iraq and Afghan wars, and broken stories about corporate corruption.

People have said I am anti-war: for the record, I am not. Sometimes nations need to go to war, and there are just wars. But there is nothing more wrong than a government lying to its people about those wars, then asking these same citizens to put their lives and their taxes on the line for those lies. If a war is justified, then tell the truth and the people will decide whether to support it.

If you have read any of the Afghan or Iraq war logs, any of the US embassy cables or any of the stories about the things WikiLeaks has reported, consider how important it is for all media to be able to report these things freely.

WikiLeaks is not the only publisher of the US embassy cables. Other media outlets, including Britain's The Guardian, The New York Times, El Pais in Spain and Der Spiegel in Germany have published the same redacted cables.

Yet it is WikiLeaks, as the co-ordinator of these other groups, that has copped the most vicious attacks and accusations from the US government and its acolytes. I have been accused of treason, even though I am an Australian, not a US, citizen. There have been dozens of serious calls in the US for me to be "taken out" by US special forces. Sarah Palin says I should be "hunted down like Osama bin Laden", a Republican bill sits before the US Senate seeking to have me declared a "transnational threat" and disposed of accordingly. An adviser to the Canadian Prime Minister's office has called on national television for me to be assassinated. An American blogger has called for my 20-year-old son, here in Australia, to be kidnapped and harmed for no other reason than to get at me.

And Australians should observe with no pride the disgraceful pandering to these sentiments by Julia Gillard and her government. The powers of the Australian government appear to be fully at the disposal of the US as to whether to cancel my Australian passport, or to spy on or harass WikiLeaks supporters. The Australian Attorney-General is doing everything he can to help a US investigation clearly directed at framing Australian citizens and shipping them to the US.

Prime Minister Gillard and US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton have not had a word of criticism for the other media organisations. That is because The Guardian, The New York Times and Der Spiegel are old and large, while WikiLeaks is as yet young and small.

We are the underdogs. The Gillard government is trying to shoot the messenger because it doesn't want the truth revealed, including information about its own diplomatic and political dealings.

Has there been any response from the Australian government to the numerous public threats of violence against me and other WikiLeaks personnel? One might have thought an Australian prime minister would be defending her citizens against such things, but there have only been wholly unsubstantiated claims of illegality. The Prime Minister and especially the Attorney-General are meant to carry out their duties with dignity and above the fray. Rest assured, these two mean to save their own skins. They will not.

Every time WikiLeaks publishes the truth about abuses committed by US agencies, Australian politicians chant a provably false chorus with the State Department: "You'll risk lives! National security! You'll endanger troops!" Then they say there is nothing of importance in what WikiLeaks publishes. It can't be both. Which is it?

It is neither. WikiLeaks has a four-year publishing history. During that time we have changed whole governments, but not a single person, as far as anyone is aware, has been harmed. But the US, with Australian government connivance, has killed thousands in the past few months alone.

US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates admitted in a letter to the US congress that no sensitive intelligence sources or methods had been compromised by the Afghan war logs disclosure. The Pentagon stated there was no evidence the WikiLeaks reports had led to anyone being harmed in Afghanistan. NATO in Kabul told CNN it couldn't find a single person who needed protecting. The Australian Department of Defence said the same. No Australian troops or sources have been hurt by anything we have published.

But our publications have been far from unimportant. The US diplomatic cables reveal some startling facts:

► The US asked its diplomats to steal personal human material and information from UN officials and human rights groups, including DNA, fingerprints, iris scans, credit card numbers, internet passwords and ID photos, in violation of international treaties. Presumably Australian UN diplomats may be targeted, too.

► King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia asked the US to attack Iran.

► Officials in Jordan and Bahrain want Iran's nuclear program stopped by any means available.

► Britain's Iraq inquiry was fixed to protect "US interests".

► Sweden is a covert member of NATO and US intelligence sharing is kept from parliament.

► The US is playing hardball to get other countries to take freed detainees from Guantanamo Bay. Barack Obama agreed to meet the Slovenian President only if Slovenia took a prisoner. Our Pacific neighbour Kiribati was offered millions of dollars to accept detainees.

In its landmark ruling in the Pentagon Papers case, the US Supreme Court said "only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose deception in government". The swirling storm around WikiLeaks today reinforces the need to defend the right of all media to reveal the truth.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27017.htm

0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 04:56 pm
Quote:
The Arrest of Julian Assange

Truth in Chains

By CHRIS FLOYD

December 07, 2010 -- 'Counterpunch" -- London. --Well, they got him at last. WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, the target of several of the world’s most powerful governments, turned himself into British authorities today and is now at the mercy of state authorities who have already shown their wolfish – and lawless – desire to destroy him and his organization.

It has been, by any standard, an extraordinary campaign of vilification and persecution, wholly comparable to the kind of treatment doled out to dissidents in China or Burma. Lest we forget, WikiLeaks is a journalistic outlet – just like The New York Times, the Guardian and Der Spiegel, all of whom are even now publishing the very same material – leaked classified documents -- available on WikiLeaks. The website is also a journalistic outlet just like CNN, ABC, CBS, Fox and other mainstream media venues, where we have seen an endless parade of officials – and journalists! – calling for Assange to be prosecuted or killed outright. Every argument being made for shutting down WikiLeaks can – and doubtless will – be used against any journalistic enterprise that publishes material that powerful people do not like.

And the leading role in this persecution of truth-telling is being played by the administration of the great progressive agent of hope and change, the self-proclaimed heir of Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi, the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize, Barack Obama. His attorney general, Eric Holder, is now making fierce noises about the “steps” he has already taken to bring down WikiLeaks and criminalize the leaking of embarrassing information. And listen to the ferocious reaction of that liberal lioness, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, who took to the pages of Rupert Murdoch’s Wall Street Journal to call for Assange to be put in prison – for 2,500,000 years:

“When WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange released his latest document trove—more than 250,000 secret State Department cables—he intentionally harmed the U.S. government. The release of these documents damages our national interests and puts innocent lives at risk. He should be vigorously prosecuted for espionage.

“The law Mr. Assange continues to violate is the Espionage Act of 1917. That law makes it a felony for an unauthorized person to possess or transmit "information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation." ... Importantly, the courts have held that "information relating to the national defense" applies to both classified and unclassified material. Each violation is punishable by up to 10 years in prison.”

So there you have it. Ten years for each offense; 250,000 separate offenses; thus a prison term of 2.5 million years. Naturally, tomorrow the same newspaper will denounce Feinstein for being such a namby-pamby terrorist-coddling pinko: “Why didn’t she call for Assange to be torn from limb to limb by wild dogs, as any right-thinking red-blooded American would do!?”

Meanwhile, corporate America and its international allies continue to do their bit. Joining PayPal and Amazon, who had already cut off their services to WikiLeaks, most of the remaining venues through which the internet journal is funded are also freezing out the organization -- MasterCard, Visa, and a Swiss bank that WikiLeaks used to process donations. All of these organizations are obviously responding to government pressure.

What is perhaps most remarkable is that this joint action by the world elite to shut down WikiLeaks – which has been operating for four years – comes after the release of diplomatic cables, not in response to earlier leaks which provided detailed evidence of crimes and atrocities committed by the perpetrators and continuers of Washington’s Terror War. I suppose this is because the diplomatic cables have upset the smooth running of the corrupt and cynical backroom operations that actually govern our world, behind the ludicrous lies and self-righteous posturing that our great and good lay on for the public. They didn’t mind being unmasked as accomplices in mass murder and fomenters of suffering and hatred; in fact, they were rather proud of it. And they certainly knew that their fellow corruptocrats in foreign governments – not to mention the perpetually stunned and supine American people – wouldn’t give a toss about a bunch of worthless peons in Iraq and Afghanistan getting killed. But the diplomatic cables have caused an embarrassing stink among the closed little clique of the movers and shakers. And that is a crime deserving of vast eons in stir – or death.

But before Assange was taken into custody, he fired off one last message to the world, in The Australian, a newspaper in his native land. With supreme irony, he tied WikiLeaks’ operation to the roots of the Murdoch media empire, which began by speaking truth to murderous and wasteful power – and now, of course, is one of the most powerful and assiduous instruments of murderous and wasteful power itself. Assange writes:

“IN 1958 a young Rupert Murdoch, then owner and editor of Adelaide’s The News, wrote: “In the race between secrecy and truth, it seems inevitable that truth will always win.” His observation perhaps reflected his father Keith Murdoch’s expose that Australian troops were being needlessly sacrificed by incompetent British commanders on the shores of Gallipoli. The British tried to shut him up but Keith Murdoch would not be silenced and his efforts led to the termination of the disastrous Gallipoli campaign.

“Nearly a century later, WikiLeaks is also fearlessly publishing facts that need to be made public. … Democratic societies need a strong media and WikiLeaks is part of that media. The media helps keep government honest. WikiLeaks has revealed some hard truths about the Iraq and Afghan wars, and broken stories about corporate corruption.

“WikiLeaks is not the only publisher of the US embassy cables. Other media outlets, including Britain ‘s The Guardian, The New York Times, El Pais in Spain and Der Spiegel in Germany have published the same redacted cables.

“Yet it is WikiLeaks, as the co-ordinator of these other groups, that has copped the most vicious attacks and accusations from the US government and its acolytes. I have been accused of treason, even though I am an Australian, not a US citizen. There have been dozens of serious calls in the US for me to be “taken out” by US Special Forces. Sarah Palin says I should be “hunted down like Osama bin Laden”, a Republican bill sits before the US Senate seeking to have me declared a “transnational threat” and disposed of accordingly. An adviser to the Canadian Prime Minister’s office has called on national television for me to be assassinated. An American blogger has called for my 20-year-old son, here in Australia, to be kidnapped and harmed for no other reason than to get at me.”

These, of course, are the defenders of Western Civilization, that pinnacle of human progress, that bulwark against savagery like murder and torture, that bastion of temperance and reason. But in his piece, Assange once more gives the lie to the ferocious canards of Feinstein, Holder, Obama and Palin about the “great harm” the leaks have done:

“WikiLeaks has a four-year publishing history. During that time we have changed whole governments, but not a single person, as far as anyone is aware, has been harmed. But the US, with Australian government connivance, has killed thousands in the past few months alone.

“US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates admitted in a letter to the US congress that no sensitive intelligence sources or methods had been compromised by the Afghan war logs disclosure. The Pentagon stated there was no evidence the WikiLeaks reports had led to anyone being harmed in Afghanistan. NATO in Kabul told CNN it couldn’t find a single person who needed protecting. The Australian Department of Defence said the same. No Australian troops or sources have been hurt by anything we have published.”

Yes, how many thousands of people, how many tens of thousands, have been killed by our bipartisan Terror Warriors in the four years of WikiLeaks’ existence? How many millions have been “harmed” not only by the direct operations of the Terror War, but by the ever-widening, ever-deepening violence, hatred and turmoil it is spreading throughout the world? (Not to mention the accelerating collapse of American society, which has been financially, politically and morally bankrupted by the acceptance of aggressive war, torture, elite rapine and authoritarian rule.)

But none of the perpetrators of these acts, past or present, are in jail, or have even been prosecuted, or investigated, or inconvenienced in any way. Yet Assange is in a British prison tonight – and it is certainly not for the “sexual misconduct” charges that were filed against him in August, which then became the basis of an unprecedented worldwide arrest order of the type ordinarily reserved for war criminals – for those, in fact, accused of aggressive war, torture, elite rapine and authoritarian rule. The judge refused to grant bail, saying that Assange had “access to financial means” and could flee the country – perhaps a bitter joke on milord’s part, aimed at a man whose means of financial support are being systematically shut down by the most powerful government and corporate forces in the world. Journalist John Pilger and filmmaker Ken Loach were among those who appeared in court ready to stand surety for Assange, but to no avail.

WikiLeaks will doubtless try to struggle on. And Assange says he has given the entire diplomatic trove to 100,000 people. By dribs and drabs, shards of truth will get out. But the world’s journalists – and those persons of conscience working in the world’s governments – have been given a hard, harsh, unmistakable lesson in the new realities of our degraded time. Tell a truth that discomforts power, that challenges its domination over our lives, our discourse, our very thoughts, and you will be destroyed. No institution, public or private, will stand with you; the most powerful entities, public and private, will be arrayed against you, backed up by overwhelming violent force. This is where we are now. This is what we are now.

Chris Floyd is an American writer and frequent contributor to CounterPunch. His blog, “Empire Burlesque,” can be found at www.chris-floyd.com.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27021.htm
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 04:59 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
Let's just say Assange had unpaid speeding fines - or armed robbery charge, or spat on the sidewalk - would you be here?

My concern for the loss of freedom and the abuse of the citizen at the hands of the state transcends bad sex law. Ditto for my outrage when the state goes charge shopping to get the person they want to get....If that is what is going on here then we all owe it to ourselves to have a fit. If Sweden, the US or anyone else whats to "GET" Assange then they need to get him for what they think he has done wrong, and can prove, not any old charge to get him off the street.

This goes to an argument that I have seen in a book that was written to support it though I dont remember the name of it...the argument is that laws are now so broadly written and so massively reinterpreted by DA's and courts that the state now can pretty much make any citizen a criminal, that the law has been so diminished that it is dangerously close to no longer even pretending to pursue justice but that it now is a tool for the state to pursue its own interests, often at the expense of the citizen and at the expense of justice.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:00 pm
@Ceili,
Do you know who Harold Koh is?

Do you think he's a crackpot partisan hack or just full of **** on this topic?

I would think that someone with Harold Koh's credentials might at least give you pause to think.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:02 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Do you know who Harold Koh is?

Do you think he's a crackpot partisan hack or just full of **** on this topic?

I would think that someone with Harold Koh's credentials might at least give you pause to think.


I certainly know who Koh is, and I agree with Ceili - what he wrote is almost certainly bullshit, and he knew it when he wrote it.

Cycloptichorn
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:08 pm
Wikileaks: Time magazine have removed Julian Assange from their person of the year poll. He was well ahead in the lead.

What a shame! I would have liked to see him as person of the year. Regardless if one is pro or contra Wikileaks, just about everyone knows now who Julian Assange is. He's the most talked person about of this year, period.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:11 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Do you know who Harold Koh is?

Do you think he's a crackpot partisan hack or just full of **** on this topic?

I would think that someone with Harold Koh's credentials might at least give you pause to think.


One would think that the facts might give you pause to think, Finn, but the facts illustrate that that's never been the case.


Quote:
These, of course, are the defenders of Western Civilization, that pinnacle of human progress, that bulwark against savagery like murder and torture, that bastion of temperance and reason. But in his piece, Assange once more gives the lie to the ferocious canards of Feinstein, Holder, Obama and Palin and Finn about the “great harm” the leaks have done:

“WikiLeaks has a four-year publishing history. During that time we have changed whole governments, but not a single person, as far as anyone is aware, has been harmed. But the US, with Australian government connivance, has killed thousands in the past few months alone.

“US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates admitted in a letter to the US congress that no sensitive intelligence sources or methods had been compromised by the Afghan war logs disclosure. The Pentagon stated there was no evidence the WikiLeaks reports had led to anyone being harmed in Afghanistan. NATO in Kabul told CNN it couldn’t find a single person who needed protecting. The Australian Department of Defence said the same. No Australian troops or sources have been hurt by anything we have published.”

Yes, how many thousands of people, how many tens of thousands, have been killed by our bipartisan Terror Warriors in the four years of WikiLeaks’ existence? How many millions have been “harmed” not only by the direct operations of the Terror War, but by the ever-widening, ever-deepening violence, hatred and turmoil it is spreading throughout the world? (Not to mention the accelerating collapse of American society, which has been financially, politically and morally bankrupted by the acceptance of aggressive war, torture, elite rapine and authoritarian rule.)

0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:11 pm
@CalamityJane,
That is terrible news.

Vested interests are sending a warning out to anyone else who dares upset their tidy deals. It behooves us all to support Assange's human rights.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:13 pm
@CalamityJane,
Wikileaks: Time magazine have removed Julian Assange from their person of the year poll. He was well ahead in the lead.

Telling, isn't it? The US media. Now there's an oxymoron for ya.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:16 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn's normally torrential flow of drivel has been reduced to a little babbling brook.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:16 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
Vested interests are sending a warning out to anyone else who dares upset their tidy deals. It behooves us all to support Assange's human rights
worse, it is another indication that in America now only opinions approved by those who run the country are allowed to be spoken. We used to be a country of free men and women, no matter how much we pat ourselves on the back for being "inclusive" of different races and sexual orientations the truth of the matter is that our freedom has been greatly eroded over the last few decades.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
We used to be a country of free men and women,


When might that have been?

Don't you find this constant whining about what America has lost pretty juvenile considering what the Iraqis, the Afghans, the Nicaraguans, the Vietnamese, ... have lost?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:19 pm
meantime I see no link and a large NPR page.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:21 pm
@CalamityJane,
Oh good grief.

**** Time, of varied views over years, not a bad thing in itself, but somewhat go along. I remember it as right wing for years and years. Pass me a tissue.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:22 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

That is terrible news.

Vested interests are sending a warning out to anyone else who dares upset their tidy deals. It behooves us all to support Assange's human rights.


Yes, you are certainly right. The longer this witch hunt takes place, the
angrier I get. Assange is a messenger like the NY Times, Der Spiegel, The London Times and all others who chose to publish the cables. He's foremost a
journalist - not a terrorist and certainly not public enemy # 1 to the U.S.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:26 pm
@CalamityJane,
Yup, One has to ask; just who are the criminals in all this?

Quote:
WikiLeaks is not the only publisher of the US embassy cables. Other media outlets, including Britain's The Guardian, The New York Times, El Pais in Spain and Der Spiegel in Germany have published the same redacted cables.

Yet it is WikiLeaks, as the co-ordinator of these other groups, that has copped the most vicious attacks and accusations from the US government and its acolytes. I have been accused of treason, even though I am an Australian, not a US, citizen. There have been dozens of serious calls in the US for me to be "taken out" by US special forces. Sarah Palin says I should be "hunted down like Osama bin Laden", a Republican bill sits before the US Senate seeking to have me declared a "transnational threat" and disposed of accordingly. An adviser to the Canadian Prime Minister's office has called on national television for me to be assassinated. An American blogger has called for my 20-year-old son, here in Australia, to be kidnapped and harmed for no other reason than to get at me.

0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 05:27 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Don't you find this constant whining about what America has lost pretty juvenile considering what the Iraqis, the Afghans, the Nicaraguans, the Vietnamese, ... have lost?
For me America is always first....I take care of, and care about, those closest to me first. How you can do all your hating on America and acting like you want America to lose and to suffer IDK. It looks to me like you have serious moral flaws.
 

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