57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 09:33 am
Have just learned that our former (Oz) PM (now foreign minister), Kevin Rudd, was considered an abrasive, impulsive, "control freak" by US diplomats.
Funny, that's exactly what folk who worked with him said! Wink

http://www.theage.com.au/world/scathing-attacks-on-rudd-revealed-in-us-diplomatic-cables-20101207-18oc2.html
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 09:36 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Can a non-US citizen be prosecuted under the Espionage Act?

Yes, but he has to have committed the alleged crime within the jurisdiction of a US court. For all I know, Assange was nowhere near the US or any US territory when he obtained and published the cables. Feinstein's Op-Ed is merely blowing up smoke.

msolga wrote:
Also, could a US newspaper like the NYT be prosecuted under the Act, given that it disseminated the leaked material?

As I understand the Supreme Court's Freedom-of-the-Press caselaw, no it can't. The New York Times has no duty to keep the US government's secrets. That's the US government's job. Because the New York Times was the passive recipient of material that was newsworthy, and because it published the material through its normal process of researching and reporting the news, the government probably can't touch it.

The precedent may be the 1971 case of New York Times v. US. The New York Times had obtained classified documents proving that the US had justified its starting the Vietnam War with a ficticious casus belli . (Sound familiar?) After the Times started publishing the documents, the Nixon administration sought a restraining order against their continued publication. After some back-and-fourth through the lower federal courts, the case went all the way up to the Supreme Court, which decided in favor of the Times.

I don't know how the case would change if the Obama administration sought to punish the New York Times after the publication rather than preventing the publication. But, purely on the basis of constitutional gut feeling, I'd say the Times is still safe. (The usual disclaimers apply: not a lawyer, gut feeling of doubtful status as legal precedent, yadda yadda yadda.)
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 09:41 am
@Thomas,
Ah.
Thank you, Thomas!
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 09:44 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:


Mr. Koh's letter said that publication of the documents in Mr. Assange's possession would, at minimum:

• "Place at risk the lives of countless innocent individuals—from journalists to human rights activists and bloggers to soldiers to individuals providing information to further peace and security;

• "Place at risk on-going military operations, including operations to stop terrorists, traffickers in human beings and illicit arms, violent criminal enterprises and other actors that threaten global security; and,

• "Place at risk on-going cooperation between countries—partners, allies and common stakeholders—to confront common challenges from terrorism to pandemic diseases to nuclear proliferation that threaten global stability."


[/quote]


I think this is total bunk!!!

Ever single one of these cables are old news, how can they possibly affect ongoing cases is beyond rational thought.
The big problem is that for the first time, we, the citizens, are seeing that the governments are a catty, bitchy group. That they are spending billions and billions of our tax dollars to prop up corrupt governments like Karzai's regime. The bigger issue is that these cables could possibly anger the citizens of their respective countries when this news came out.
In Canada, people are pissed. Why have we sent our sons and daughters over there to be slaughtered for the sake of a truly criminal organization. And... at least in Canada, after we'd agreed on a date to bring the forces home in 2011, our prime minister has now extended the date for another 3 years without debate.
The worst part of this is, now that the cables have come out, and we see that so many government officials are in agreement of how bad Karzai an co. are, and that the people of Afghanistan know how fraudulent their own government is. Afghanis must question why we in the west are protecting such a group in the first place, the most corrupt government on earth. Or at least, we the citizens, of our respective nations, must start questioning our own government corruption for the sake of keeping this madness going.
One has to wonder about all the bloodshed and lies and think, hey why not support Mugabe too... or if Karzai is such an ally, what possible reason could they have gone after Saddam, they seem like peas in the pod to me after reading all this shite.
The US funded the Taliban and it bit us all in the ass, now the leaks have shed a light on how our governments are in collusion with other crooked governments, like those in Yemmen, Saudi Arabia. I wonder what future western generations will pay with when this investment in Evil comes to pass?

Again, I don't think any lives are at stake when old news is uncovered, but I do think, at least in areas where there is freedom of the press and ideas, that this, at the very least, would cause us all to question our so-called leadership.
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 09:50 am
I am aghast about the Swedish accusations and the Interpol initiation, especially in the wake of Sweden's king, Carl Gustav's exposure to having affairs with several ladies of the night and prostitution is against the law in Sweden. He shamed his family and the country, yet they are so eager to prosecute Assange
for an alleged rape that turned into consensual sex without a condom. Hypocrites!!
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 09:53 am
@Ceili,
John Pilger argues that case very well, I think, Ceili.
(Lateline radio interview I posted above.)



But I must go to bed now.
Good night, all.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 10:03 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
The Supreme Court in New York Times Co. v. United States found that the government had not made a successful case for prior restraint, but a majority of the justices ruled that the government could still prosecute the Times and the Post for violating the Espionage Act in publishing the documents.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 10:04 am
But just before I go ..
A news report just in.
.

Quote:

Wikileaks founder Julian Assange refused bail

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/50331000/jpg/_50331755_010802095-2.jpg
Julian Assange being driven into Westminster Magistrates' Court Julian Assange surrendered himself to police in London

The founder of the whistle-blowing website Wikileaks, Julian Assange, has told a court he will fight extradition to Sweden.

Bail was refused and the Australian, who denies sexually assaulted two women in Sweden, was remanded in custody pending a hearing next week.

Mr Assange told a judge at City of Westminster Magistrates' Court he would contest extradition.

A Wikileaks spokesman said Mr Assange's arrest was an attack on media freedom.

Kristinn Hrafnsson said it would not stop release of more secret files and told Reuters on Tuesday: "Wikileaks is operational. We are continuing on the same track as laid out before.

"Any development with regards to Julian Assange will not change the plans we have with regards to the releases today and in the coming days."... <cont>


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11937110
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 10:09 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Holder was asked Monday how the United States could prosecute Assange, who is an Australian citizen. "Let me be very clear," he replied. "It is not saber rattling.

"To the extent there are gaps in our laws," Holder continued, "we will move to close those gaps, which is not to say . . . that anybody at this point, because of their citizenship or their residence, is not a target or a subject of an investigation that's ongoing." He did not indicate that Assange is being investigated for possible violations of the Espionage Act.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/29/AR2010112905973.html
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 10:19 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Quote:
The Supreme Court in New York Times Co. v. United States found that the government had not made a successful case for prior restraint, but a majority of the justices ruled that the government could still prosecute the Times and the Post for violating the Espionage Act in publishing the documents.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917

Not true. If you read the court's opinion, which is only a page long, you will see it doesn't even mention the Espionage Act. Perhaps the Wikipedia contributor who wrote this paragraph had some other case in mind, but forgot to reference it. Or perhaps one can construe something that kinda sorta approaches Wikipedia's claim by stitching together tidbits from the numerous concurring and dissenting opinions in New York Times v. US. (I haven't read them.) But no matter: neither of the dissents and concurrences is a precedent under current US law. Only the court's opinion is. And the Court's opinion, to repeat, doesn't even mention the Espionage act, let alone decide anything about it.
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 10:20 am
Oh I am sure, the United States will find a reasonable explanation why they
absolutely must prosecute Assange and the minute he's extradited to Sweden
(hopefully not) he'll be shipped off to the U.S.

In case some nations don't know yet: the United States is capable of breaking
any international laws in order to reach their goal. Geneva Convention? Human rights? Who cares if you're not American!
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 10:23 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Quote:
The Supreme Court in New York Times Co. v. United States found that the government had not made a successful case for prior restraint, but a majority of the justices ruled that the government could still prosecute the Times and the Post for violating the Espionage Act in publishing the documents.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917


The Supreme Court case focused on "prior restraint." Thanks for making that distinction, Finn.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 10:26 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
"To the extent there are gaps in our laws," Holder continued, "we will move to close those gaps, which is not to say . . . that anybody at this point, because of their citizenship or their residence, is not a target or a subject of an investigation that's ongoing."

Damn right "there are gaps in our laws"---one of them is colloquially referred to as the rest of the world. It will be entertaining to watch Mr. Holder attempt to close it. Any legal-procedure textbook will tell you, on one of its first pages, that US courts can do nothing about a case unless they have jurisdiction over it. And US courts don't have jurisdiction over crimes committed by non-US persons outside the United States and its territories.

If this smoke-and-mirrors show is the best the Obama administration can do, it must be desperate.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 10:33 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:
Oh I am sure, the United States will find a reasonable explanation why they absolutely must prosecute Assange and the minute he's extradited to Sweden (hopefully not) he'll be shipped off to the U.S.

Why would Sweden ship him off to the US, if Sweden wants to prosecute him for raping to Swedish women in Sweden?
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 10:58 am
@Thomas,
Are you really that naive, Thomas?

Assange made himself available for questioning in Sweden for four weeks, then left the country with the permission of the public prosecutor's office and told Scotland Yard in Great Britain that he could be reached through her law firm, says Jennifer Robinson, Assange's attorney. He also offered to be questioned at the Swedish Embassy in London or directly at Scotland Yard, she said.
(spiegel.de)

This took place in August 2010 and now after Wikileaks published the cables,
Sweden issues a red alert Interpol search for Assange. Furthermore, both
women admitted to consensual sex but later on changed their mind (probably
due to pressure).

Assange's lawyers fear that he'll be extradited to the U.S. once he's in Sweden
based on Sweden's recent actions against him (Interpol), after he's become
public enemy # 1 in the U.S.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 11:02 am
@Thomas,
I'm sure Wikipedia will welcome your correction.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 11:03 am
@Thomas,
Have you joined the Assange defense team?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 11:39 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Quote:
The Supreme Court in New York Times Co. v. United States found that the government had not made a successful case for prior restraint, but a majority of the justices ruled that the government could still prosecute the Times and the Post for violating the Espionage Act in publishing the documents.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917

Not true. If you read the court's opinion, which is only a page long, you will see it doesn't even mention the Espionage Act. Perhaps the Wikipedia contributor who wrote this paragraph had some other case in mind, but forgot to reference it. Or perhaps one can construe something that kinda sorta approaches Wikipedia's claim by stitching together tidbits from the numerous concurring and dissenting opinions in New York Times v. US. (I haven't read them.) But no matter: neither of the dissents and concurrences is a precedent under current US law. Only the court's opinion is. And the Court's opinion, to repeat, doesn't even mention the Espionage act, let alone decide anything about it.


Well, however some judges had the Espionage Act in mind.

For instance, Supreme Court Justice Byron White, in his concurrence, practically invited the administration to pursue prosecution against the New York Times after the publication was completed. The "failure by the Government to justify prior restraints does not measure its constitutional entitlement to a conviction for criminal publication," he wrote, "I would have no difficulty in sustaining convictions under these sections on facts that would not justify … prior restraint."
Source
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 11:46 am
@CalamityJane,
CalamityJane wrote:

Are you really that naive, Thomas?

Assange made himself available for questioning in Sweden for four weeks, then left the country with the permission of the public prosecutor's office and told Scotland Yard in Great Britain that he could be reached through her law firm, says Jennifer Robinson, Assange's attorney. He also offered to be questioned at the Swedish Embassy in London or directly at Scotland Yard, she said.
(spiegel.de)

This took place in August 2010 and now after Wikileaks published the cables,
Sweden issues a red alert Interpol search for Assange. Furthermore, both
women admitted to consensual sex but later on changed their mind (probably
due to pressure).

Assange's lawyers fear that he'll be extradited to the U.S. once he's in Sweden
based on Sweden's recent actions against him (Interpol), after he's become
public enemy # 1 in the U.S.


Isn't it possible that the women have a personal grievance rather than a political one? Sadly, for women everywhere, police listen to complaints about sexual abuse every day.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Dec, 2010 11:50 am
The State Department's latest statement on our News is in line with my earlier post. It's priorities were to apologise to all those whose discretion it has blown and embarrassed, to initiate an enquiry into why this happened and only thirdly to pursue vengeance against Mr Assange.
0 Replies
 
 

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