57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 07:43 am
We keep reading media reports about how Julian Assange is about to be apprehended any minute, to face the charges in Sweden.
Why hasn't it happened yet, then?
What's the progress on catching up with him?
I have the sneaking suspicion the very last thing the Swedish courts would welcome is this case being brought to trial, with the inevitable world wide attention it would receive.
As for Julian Assange, I can perfectly understand why he would not want to place himself in the hands of the police in any country, at this point in time.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:03 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
It is no longer a rape charge, but it is now a charge of "sex by surprise". (Which I understand means sex without a condom. Not that I am advocating sex without a condom as a terrific idea, please understand.)

Well, it's probably a slow month at Interpol, with everybody behaving well in the spirit of the Christmas season. They must be scrounging for something to keep themselves busy with. And sex by surprise does lead to many an unwanted pregnancy. So what would you prefer for Interpol to do, arrest thugs for preying on helpless refugees in Sudan? Get a grip, Olga!
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:12 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
And sex by surprise does lead to many an unwanted pregnancy. So what would you rather see Interpol do, arrest thugs for preying on helpless refugees in Sudan? Get a grip, Olga!

You know my answer to that, of course, Thomas. Wink

I just have weird priorities, I guess.
Neutral


0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:23 am
@msolga,
Quote:
(Which I understand means sex without a condom. Not that I am advocating sex without a condom as a terrific idea, please understand.)


How do you define "sex" Olga? You do need a definition of the key word in your pronouncements on important matters.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 08:38 am
@spendius,
I understand "sex" to mean the various manifestations of heterosexual sex, which apply to the particular situation we're talking about here, as I understand it, spendius.

I said:
Quote:
Which I understand means sex without a condom. Not that I am advocating sex without a condom as a terrific idea, please understand.


I realized, after I'd posted, I should have said: Which I understand means sex without a condom. Not that I am advocating casual sex without a condom as a terrific idea, please understand.

But why is my opinion about sex important?
What does this have to do with what we are discussing here?


CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 10:04 am
It's almost more interesting to see how the U.S. reacts to the cables as the
documents themselves. Isn't it frightening that a manhunt of this caliber can
be initiated by the U.S? Other nations are pressured to follow suit or they're threatened with economic sanctions and other means to alienate them. Even
Interpol can be persuaded to follow U.S. orders.

Here we wonder why bullying has become such a big thing in the United States,
while our government is showing us how it's done.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 12:13 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
But why is my opinion about sex important?


Because, as I pointed out, "sex" was the key word in your sentence. The various manifestations of heterosexual sex include dinners for two and footsie under the table and a whole host of other things. Shaking the ungloved hand might be said to be more intimate than wearing a rubber barrier. Or kissing it fondly.

Quote:
What does this have to do with what we are discussing here?


Because it was dwelt upon in your post and because there are allegations being made about Mr Assange which seem to have a bearing on the case.

I hadn't mentioned the matter.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 12:32 pm
@CalamityJane,
It's a big test for liberals Cal. As I understand the liberal position it is to focus on the act and not the actor and to see behaviour rooted in socialisation and biological factors. And to apply therapeutic solutions rather than punitive ones. The guy was probably socialised to believe in open government and suchlike nonsense. A child of the permissive society.

But the question remains unanswered in regard of the reactions to the disclosures and whether they will cause more intolerance and loss of freedom. When a convict escapes from prison the inmates left behind are punished. Has he shot us in the foot. Are his actions going to have opposite effects, either intended or unintended, to his justification.

It's a version of "the Emperor has no clothes" isn't it? Little boy stuff. Surely nobody here has learned anything? Did anybody think our politicians, diplomats & Co were sweet little goodie-goodies before these events and have now been brought into the real world?

The best insight has been wande's about how intelligence officers in war zones spend their days. Thanks to wande all that will now be stopped.

Still--there's neo-liberals you can all join now if straight liberal is getting too confusing.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 01:08 pm
Others on this thread may have discussed this before.

I was thinking about how protection of privacy affects all of us, not just government. For example, privacy concerns about Facebook have been a prominent topic of discussion.

Stanford Law School has a "Center for Internet and Society" that focuses on the evolving area of internet law. Ryan Cato, the director of the center's Consumer Privacy Project has posted an essay about the implications of the Wikileaks controversy on individual privacy.

Quote:
Wikileaks: Lessons For Consumer Privacy

The website Wikileaks recently published hundreds of thousands of confidential State Department cables. These communications apparently reveal the details of conversations with, and personal impressions and assessments of, foreign leaders and diplomats. Many fear that the leak will undermine international relations in profound and unknowable ways. One of the unintended consequence of the leak, however, may be to strengthen the case for a national consumer privacy law.

Intimacy would not be possible without privacy—as Charles Fried, Tom Gerety, Robert Gerstein, and Julie Cohen so effectively show. Privacy means that the individual may choose to whom to reveal the details of her inner life. A decision to trust begets trust, such that I will be more likely to reveal myself to those who reveal themselves to me. Escalating, mutual revelation is how friendships, families, and other intimacies often grow.

What is true of people is presumably true of states. Ground rules of confidence and secure channels of communication spark candor, which in turn breed trust and intimacy. Interstate intimacy has profound repercussions. Trust, won even through gossip, facilitates diplomacy and hence has the potential to avert hard power. As Steven Aftergood of FAS points out, “If Wikileaks were … anti-war, it would safeguard, not disrupt, the conduct of diplomatic communications.”

We should not take this analogy too far: there is a big difference between safeguarding interpersonal/state communications and hiding policy decisions. The former is necessary for effective diplomacy, the latter is potentially destructive to democracy. I certainly have a problem with, for instance, secret negotiations of a binding copyright treaty.

The cables reveal both confidences and policy. Everyone knows that even non-clandestine diplomats must keep their eyes and ears open, but the leaked communications reveal instructions from the State Department for diplomats to secure specific details about their counterparts abroad. Conversations and personal passwords alike can be aggregated and downloaded, converting intimate interpersonal meetings into utilitarian data points. Mixing diplomacy with intelligence gathering may be a poor policy decision in that it undermines the very trust required for intimacy.

But the twin lessons of Wikileaks should be obvious. And, I would argue, apply just as readily to companies and consumers as they do states. First, there must be a space for diplomatic and consumer candor. By consumer candor, I mean nothing more grandiose than a well-earned comfort in revealing to a business who you are and what it is you want, so that they can provide that thing to you.

Second, it is possible and often desirable to separate out functions such as diplomacy and sales from surreptitious information gathering activity. As with diplomats, companies do not earn trust by using every interaction with a consumer to profile them, much less by storing that information in a database that can, and often does, leak out.

Maybe these lessons will finally seep in. It took the revelation of video records of a prominent judge, after all, for Congress to pass the Video Privacy Protection Act. Here, again, we see bipartisan condemnation of the leak as disruptive to national security and damaging to U.S. foreign relations. Couple this rare point of agreement with a bipartisan consumer bill and an incoming Speaker who once filed a lawsuit under federal electronic privacy law and some real possibilities open up.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 01:39 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
That's a disgraceful and shameful thing to say for somebody who lives the lifestyle you do ci.


Jesus Christ Almighty, but you got this way screwed up, Spendi. What are you making excuses for? Governments are supposed to be trustworthy. Some even have the gall to campaign on just such promises.

According to your twisted logic, CI is supposed to feel ashamed for believing, knowing what is a well known truth. I guess that working hard and being honest are shameful things to do.

Its his money, earned and saved. He's entitled to do with it as he pleases.

What is truly disgraceful and shameful is the kind of apologies you make for these governments that have committed horrendous crimes against innocents. I guess that for a "Christian" raping, torturing and murdering innocents is okay but spending your own money as you please is a big sin.

As I said, you have got this so screwed up!

Quote:
Which governments in which places and in which times would you have trusted?


An absolute non-issue except that it once again illustrates your propensity to casually dismiss evil.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 02:39 pm
@JTT,
About all ci. could achieve without the government is collecting sea shells, nuts and fruit when in season and lying down in a hole when he's feeling bad.

Governments can't afford to be trustworthy and open because being so implicates the rest of us. We get the business done and keep our hands clean.

Non-intellectuals can be identified by them holding on to the dream of lovely theories of benevolence, a cosy option and ideal in the popularity stakes, insulated from the pragmatics of power politics. The crudity of the idealist's separation of theory from practice requires a stupified audience.

Christians don't rape, murder and torture. Human nature does that and if you think there's more of it now than there used to be you've been reading rosy-coloured spectacles history and not through a glass darkly stuff.

What's this "working hard" bullshit? And "saved"!!! Ye Gods. He is spending his descendent's inheritance on "seeing the world" and in between receiving the best medical attention the world has ever seen.

How can it be "his money" without reference to externals.

I can understand ci. thinking those things because he's thick and self-centred but to parade them before young people's eyes I find shameful--yes. Talking down his government for the sake of a post in front of impressionable young people is despicable. 3 months in a tent in Haiti is what he needs.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 02:54 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Finn, I'm sorry, but I can't take this exchange any further than I already have.
I've already said all I've wanted to say. I'd just be repeating the same things, over & over.


That's fine msolga.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 03:18 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
About all ci. could achieve without the government is collecting sea shells, nuts and fruit when in season and lying down in a hole when he's feeling bad.


Government would not exist without people. Government is the people. You think there is some sanctified group that exists outside of the human race to fill the roles of government.

Quote:

Governments can't afford to be trustworthy and open because being so implicates the rest of us. We get the business done and keep our hands clean.

Christians don't rape, murder and torture. Human nature does that and if you think there's more of it now than there used to be you've been reading rosy-coloured spectacles history and not through a glass darkly stuff.


"We get the business done and keep our hands clean. Christians don't rape, murder and torture."

Separating it with another paragraph doesn't mitigate your hypocrisy any, Spendi. The facts show that Christians do "rape, murder and torture", just not normally in that order. They like to torture before they murder. It's more personally rewarding for them.

The CIA is, I'm sure, full of Christians as is the US government and I suspect the British government.

Quote:
Non-intellectuals can be identified by them holding on to the dream of lovely theories of benevolence, a cosy option and ideal in the popularity stakes, insulated from the pragmatics of power politics. The crudity of the idealist's separation of theory from practice requires a stupified audience.


Don't flatter yourself. I've seen some of the finest examples of tripe flow from your mouth over the last while.

Again, all you admit here is that Christians do rape, torture and murder. Power politics shouldn't include illegally invading innocent countries based on a pack of lies and shock and awing their citizens. That's not power politics. Those are war crimes.

Quote:
What's this "working hard" bullshit? And "saved"!!! Ye Gods. He is spending his descendent's inheritance on "seeing the world" and in between receiving the best medical attention the world has ever seen.

How can it be "his money" without reference to externals.


Stop getting soused every night and think about putting that money in the collection plate, Spendi.






hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 03:21 pm
Apparently a warrant for Assange's arrest has been issued to Scotland Yard.

Is he the new Salman Rushdie?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 03:36 pm
This is an excellent article which provides supported insight into the motives of Julian Assange as well as an entirely rationale prediction of what the results of his actions will be.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703989004575653113548361870.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_h

Quote:
Whatever else WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has accomplished, he's ended the era of innocent optimism about the Web. As wiki innovator Larry Sanger put it in a message to WikiLeaks, "Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.—not just the government, but the people."

The irony is that WikiLeaks' use of technology to post confidential U.S. government documents will certainly result in a less free flow of information. The outrage is that this is Mr. Assange's express intention.


Quote:
Mr. Assange is misunderstood in the media and among digirati as an advocate of transparency. Instead, this battening down of the information hatches by the U.S. is precisely his goal.

Or as Mr. Assange told Time magazine last week, "It is not our goal to achieve a more transparent society; it's our goal to achieve a more just society." If leaks cause U.S. officials to "lock down internally and to balkanize," they will "cease to be as efficient as they were."


Wikipedia's Sanger is absolutely right - Assange is an enemy of the US government and people. His intention is to render the US "regime" ineffective, by strangling internal communication. This will not do Americans any favors, nor the rest of the world for that matter unless one believes the American government is the enemy and the interests of the American people counter to those of the rest of the world.

Now I fully understand that there are many people, including some Americans, who agree with Assange on this, and welcome the result he seeks, but no one should delude themselves that WikiLeaks is a force for truth and transparency in the world.

Quote:
Mr. Assange doesn't mail bombs, but his actions have life-threatening consequences. Consider the case of a 75-year-old dentist in Los Angeles, Hossein Vahedi. According to one of the confidential cables released by WikiLeaks, Dr. Vahedi, a U.S. citizen, returned to Iran in 2008 to visit his parents' graves. Authorities confiscated his passport because his sons worked as concert promoters for Persian pop singers in the U.S. who had criticized the theocracy.

The cable reported that Dr. Vahedi decided to escape by horseback over the mountains of western Iran and into Turkey. He trained by hiking the hills above Tehran. He took extra heart medication. But when he fell off his horse, he was injured and nearly froze. When he made it to Turkey, the U.S. Embassy intervened to stop him being sent back to Iran.

"This is very bad for my family," Dr. Vahedi told the New York Daily News on being told about the leak of the cable naming him and describing his exploits. Tehran has a new excuse to target his relatives in Iran. "How could this be printed?"

Excellent question. It's hard being collateral damage in the world of WikiLeaks.


According to msolga, Assange's answer to charges that he has blood on his hands is that he, allegedly, gave the US government the opportunity to vet the information and tell him what items might cause individual harm. That they did not, puts the responsibility for such harm on them.

If this is true, it is a clever but entirely cynical dodge of personal responsibility, and it's hard to imagine how anyone of good will might accept it as morally legitimate.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 03:37 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
Is he the new Salman Rushdie?


With the Fatwa coming from the USA and support from all its little groupies.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 03:46 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
According to msolga, Assange's answer to charges that he has blood on his hands is that he, allegedly, gave the US government the opportunity to vet the information and tell him what items might cause individual harm. That they did not, puts the responsibility for such harm on them.

If this is true, it is a clever but entirely cynical dodge of personal responsibility, and it's hard to imagine how anyone of good will might accept it as morally legitimate.


Hypocrisy, taken to heights unimaginable!

There aren't words yet to describe the dodges that both the USA governments and you personally make to avoid addressing the numerous instances of war crimes/mass murder/terrorism.

The USA should not be speaking in terms of "blood on anyone's hands", nor should apologists for war crimes like you, Finn. And both should be called on it every time they try.

How can you even speak of personal responsibility, Finn. You have absolutely no conception of what it means.

Quote:
Whatever else WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange has accomplished, he's ended the era of innocent optimism about the Web. As wiki innovator Larry Sanger put it in a message to WikiLeaks, "Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the U.S.—not just the government, but the people."


Could it be possible that Larry's motives are direct self interest, ie. he wants to keep his chickenshit little ass out of what he sees as a potentially long prison term?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 04:23 pm
@JTT,
I agree that it is important to expose war crimes, but is disrupting diplomacy the best way to do it? Diplomacy is a means of preventing wars from occurring in the first place.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 04:23 pm
@hingehead,
New developments, as reported by the Guardian today:


Quote:
9.39pm: Julian Assange, the founder of WikiLeaks, is expected to appear in a UK court tomorrow after his lawyers said he would meet police to discuss a European extradition warrant from Sweden relating to alleged sexual assaults, Owen Bowcott reports.

Assange is seeking supporters to put up surety and bail for him. He said he expected to have to post bail of between £100,000 and £200,000 and would require up to six people offering surety, or risked being held on remand.

Once he turns himself into the police he will have to appear before a magistrates court within 24 hours, where he will seek release on bail. A full hearing of his extradition case would have to be heard within 28 days.


Quote:
9.14pm: Mark Stephens, Assange's London-based lawyer, yesterday denounced the Swedish extradition warrant as a "political stunt".



Quote:
9.23pm: The net appears to be closing on Julian Assange. The US attorney general tonight compounded a week of intense diplomatic pressure on Assange and WikiLeaks when he warned: "We are looking at all the things we can do to try to stem the flow of this information."

The Guardian's Ewen MacAskill and Sam Jones report:

The US attorney general, speaking at a press conference in Washington, said: "The lives of people who work for the American people have been put at risk. The American people themselves have been put at risk by these actions that I believe are arrogant, misguided and ultimately not helpful in any way. We are doing everything that we can."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/blog/2010/dec/06/julian-assange-wikileaks-latest
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Dec, 2010 04:27 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Government would not exist without people.


People are a rabble without government.

Quote:
. Government is the people.


Then the people are responsible for the offences you often list.

Christians do not rape, murder and torture. You're using the word the way you want to. Please don't think you are the only one who objects to those things. Abu Graid and the row over waterboarding is proof enough that the American people are against such things. Claiming to be a Christian does not make a person one.

It was liberals who did the business in Vietnam wasn't it. And dirty realpolitik people who ended it. Most dead Iraqis were killed by Iraqis. Nobody was ever going to forget appeasing Hitler. You have no idea what would be happening if Saddam was still running mad. They are decisions I'm glad I'm not called upon to make.

When you fall back on me being "soused" you really are scraping the bottom.

 

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