57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 02:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Similarly, the woman that murders her rapist has violated the law and must suffer the consequences. Society cannot abide vigilantes. Manning was a vigilante.


He is not entitle to even that level of defend as he did not released one narrow bit of information that pointed out some possible moral failing of the US government instead he did a massive released to others of all kind of secret information most of which have zero to do with any moral issue.

If he had just released the video of the gunships attacks for example then he might had have that defend available to him.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 02:58 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn, my argument is that the establishment has conveniently brushed it's own responsibility for what occurred (the serious security leaks) under the carpet ...

...and at the same time has relentlessly pursued the "perp", as you call Bradley Manning, to make him the fall guy, possibly with Julian Assange to follow.
And to achieve this desired outcome, the establishment has placed Bradley Manning, a person with an established record of mental instability (even before handing over the embassy cables to Wikileaks ) under further intolerable strain .... (physical isolation, chains ... have you read any of the reports of the conditions he was kept under for months before his hearing?) ... presumably in the hope of breaking his spirit & stitching him up. when he is tried.

Quote:
Confusing the issue with all sorts of competing moral considerations and personal empathy with the defendant is in conflict with The Rule of Law.

Manning is guilty of violating a law, and he must suffer the consequences.

It is not so much that the "moral issues" "competed" with the fact that he handed over the cables to Wikileaks. He did it. But there is the real possibility that his mental state contributed to what he did. And the army establishment took no responsibility what-so-ever for his mental state, when obviously he should have been removed from his post (especially with access to such "sensitive material!) & should have received proper treatment.
I can't see at all why that cannot be taken into account. I believe that this would be taken into account if person was involved in a trial in a civilian trial. Why not in a military trial, to?

Quote:
Similarly, the woman that murders her rapist has violated the law and must suffer the consequences.

I have seen juries make many different interpretations in such cases, based on their understanding of very different circumstances in different cases. You talk as if all such murders are identical.
But this is an entirely different situation to a military hearing, for a military misdemeanor. I can't see what useful comparisons can be made.

Quote:
We seek objective interpretations of The Law and its violations. When subjectivity is inserted in the equation, the Rule of Law is weakened.

What you call "subjectivity", Finn, many would call taking into full account all the information, including the accused's mental condition at the time of the misdemeanor. And quite rightly so, too, I believe. Things are not quite so neatly black & white as you would prefer.

-
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 03:11 am
@msolga,
Quote:
It is not so much that the "moral issues" "competed" with the fact that he handed over the cables to Wikileaks. He did it. But there is the real possibility that his mental state contributed to what he did. And the army establishment took no responsibility what-so-ever for his mental state, when obviously he should have been removed from his post (especially with access to such "sensitive material!) & should have received proper treatment.


Who care about his mental state and if you leave your home unlock and someone used that fact to empty your house of your belongings the fact that the house was unlock does not reduce that person guilt on little tiny bit.

The failure to have greater safeguards in placed or Manning mental state does not reduce his guilt one little bit.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 06:19 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Confusing the issue with all sorts of competing moral considerations and personal empathy with the defendant is in conflict with The Rule of Law.


What about Jared Laughner Finn? He is not going to be tried as I understand it.

It isn't as if those responsible for recruitment to posts involving secret material are unaware of the risks of mental disturbance or unusual lifestyles. And even well adjusted individuals can be at risk in circumstances in which this "mess of a child" was placed.

Brad is an accident as Andy Warhol said Valerie Solanas was and she emptied a magazine of lead into his chest at short range in his office. And the accident was caused by the carelessness of his superiors.

Don't you trust your great artists?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 06:29 am

Press release from the Bradley Manning Support Network. January 12, 2012:


Quote:


Military refers all charges against Bradley Manning to court martial


Despite Clear Evidence of Bias, ‘Show Trial’ of Accused WikiLeaks Whistle-blower Set to Proceed

WASHINGTON, DC — Military officers orchestrating proceedings against PFC Bradley Manning have referred all charges that were considered during last month’s Article 32 proceedings to a general court martial. Investigating officer Lt. Col. Paul Almanza rejected a request from lead defense counsel David Coombs to consolidate the 22 charges into three charges, expressing concerns that the military is over-charging PFC Manning.

“We’re disappointed but by no means surprised,” said Jeff Paterson, a lead organizer for the Bradley Manning Support Network. “The investigating officer showed no concern for the conflict of interest caused by his dual employment with the Justice Department, or the taint of bias arising from his commander-in-chief, President Obama, who publicly declared Manning to be guilty long before he ever had his day in court.”

Lt. Col. Paul Alamanza, the investigating officer who referred the charges to court martial, refused to recuse himself on the grounds that his employer — the Justice Department — is pursuing a separate investigation into WikiLeaks. He was also criticized for allowing all of the military’s witnesses and evidence to be presented, while prohibiting all but two of the defense’s witnesses from testifying, as well as evidence that could exonerate the accused WikiLeaks whistle-blower.

The recommendations, which now go before the Special Court Martial Convening Authority, include the most serious charge of “aiding the enemy.” Legal observers who followed the Article 32 proceedings noted that military prosecutors never provided evidence of how these materials supposedly harmed national security.

“These charges contradict the administration’s own impact assessments which showed that these WikiLeaks revelations posed no threat to our national security” said Kevin Zeese, a legal adviser to the Bradley Manning Support Network. “But since the Obama administration appears dead set on railroading Bradley Manning through their show trial, we can’t expect them to allow such critical evidence or testimony to be considered. This evidence could have shown that these materials were improperly classified.”

The new convening authority Maj. Gen. Linnington is expected to make a final recommendation on these charges in about a week, with the court martial anticipated to resume in three to five months.

Hundreds of supporters marched and demonstrated in support of Bradley Manning outside the Article 32 proceedings at Fort Meade last month. Organizers say that the Obama administration can expect even larger numbers at the court martial.


http://www.bradleymanning.org/news/military-refers-all-charges-against-bradley-manning-to-court-martial

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BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 06:51 am
@spendius,
The matter is a clear crime no difference from any other crime in that sense and we do not allow criminals to go free because the victims of the crime was careless or due the criminals mental states for that matter except for very narrow reasons that does not apply here.

People are being silly over this matter the young man had no defend and will serve a long long prison term as a result of his actions.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 06:53 am
@msolga,
Quote:
“But since the Obama administration appears dead set on railroading Bradley Manning through their show trial, we can’t expect them to allow such critical evidence or testimony to be considered. This evidence could have shown that these materials were improperly classified


What nonsense....................
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 07:18 am
@BillRM,
It was not a crime if he was nuts at the time.

I offered a few suggestions to explain a "mess of a child" going nuts where he was. You made no comments about them. Have you been to Afghanistan Bill?

Have you ever had a chap in a turban look at you and draw his finger across his throat cackling fiendishly and rolling the whites of his eyes?

These things look simple where you are placed.

Why not call for capital punishment? Brad is supposed to represent a greater danger than most executed criminals.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 07:35 am
@spendius,
It does not seem like Manning's lawyer is pursuing an insanity defense. The defense strategy seems aimed at minimizing any punishment of Manning, conceding that he technically violated laws.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 08:31 am
@spendius,
Quote:
It was not a crime if he was nuts at the time
.


It is a crime under US law unless he was so nuts he did not know it was a crime and given the precautions not to be found out he knew he was breaking the law as he did so.

Mental illness by itself is never never a defend to breaking our laws.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 16 Jan, 2012 08:34 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
The defense strategy seems aimed at minimizing any punishment of Manning, conceding that he technically violated laws.


That defend is going to go over big with members of a military court marshal........LOL

Breaking big rocks into little rocks is his future.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2012 05:22 am
@BillRM,
Perhaps if you fill out the correct application forms Bill the authorities which you dote on so lovingly will let you watch him being tortured in a quarry by brutal guards for 60 years or so.
BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2012 08:00 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Perhaps if you fill out the correct application forms Bill the authorities which you dote on so lovingly will let you watch him being tortured in a quarry by brutal guards for 60 years or so.


Whatever my friend as he was told up front what his responsibilities happen to be in relationship to those materials and the punishment for breaking the laws he broke so why the tears?

Do you cried for other criminals or just for US traitors?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2012 10:06 am
Quote:
Lawyer in WikiLeaks case wants to depose Clinton
(The Associated Press, January 16, 2012)

WASHINGTON (AP) — A lawyer for an intelligence analyst charged with leaking classified information to the anti-secrecy website WikiLeaks wants to question Secretary of State Hillary Clinton before his client is tried.

David Coombs, a lawyer for Pfc. Bradley Manning, included a request to question Clinton as part of a redacted document posted Monday on his website and also sent to Army officials. Clinton's name is obscured in the document, but it is clear from context that she is the person he wants to question.

Coombs failed in his attempt to call Clinton as a witness at Manning's preliminary hearing last month. The Army is still deciding whether the 24-year-old Manning, who is accused of causing the biggest leak of classified information in U.S. history, should stand trial.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2012 11:20 am
@wandeljw,
Whatever the defense uses for Manning, they need to point out that banks and investment companies security are the responsibility of the institution's CEO's and Presidents. Same with the Department of Defense, the IRS, and a whole slew of government departments that must ensure its security. If hackers get into their system to take out money from their ATM's, they can't end up blaming the peon who works there.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2012 11:43 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Whatever the defense uses for Manning, they need to point out that banks and investment companies security are the responsibility of the institution's CEO's and Presidents. Same with the Department of Defense, the IRS, and a whole slew of government departments that must ensure its security. If hackers get into their system to take out money from their ATM's, they can't end up blaming the peon who works there.


...unless the peon who works there IS the hacker.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2012 11:46 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
If hackers get into their system to take out money from
their ATM's, they can't end up blaming the peon who works there.


You sure would blame anyone of your employees<peons> who work with the hackers!!!!!!!!

Are you stupid or just think that most of the readers of this thread are stupid or both?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2012 11:51 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
Do you cried for other criminals or just for US traitors?


I don't cry but I do feel saddened a bit yes. I often wonder what drove them to do what they did and whether I might have done the same had I been unlucky enough to be exposed to what they must have been.

"There but for the grace of God go I" is not a folk cliche for nothing. Most of the prison reforms of the last century are probably based on it.

Only an out-and-out bastard sadist could gurgle and gloat over the prospect of a fellow man, a "mess of a child", breaking rocks for the rest of his life.

One doesn't blame a kid for setting fire to the house. One blames the silly sods who let it play with matches and the gas taps.

The conditions in which the guy was incarcerated before some people objected tells me all I need to know about those who imposed them.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2012 12:15 pm
@spendius,
Sorry but unless he is an idiot that lack normal understanding of his actions he did his crime with open eyes and should be punish to the degree that was explained to him up front when he was given his security clearance in the first place.

An no I can not see myself doing this crime and by so doing betraying my oath and the trust place in me beside breaking the law.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jan, 2012 12:39 pm
@BillRM,
But you are not under the pressures Brad must have been under in your cosy and comforting environs.

Anybody can make the claim you make. I can't see myself doing the thing either. What difference does that make?
 

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