57
   

WikiLeaks about to hit the fan

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jan, 2011 04:45 pm
@hingehead,
hingehead wrote:

Hi JW - thought you might be interested in the response to Anderson's article from WL 2011-01-04: James Richardson's Collateral Damage in the Guardian: WikiLeaks & Tsvangirai




I appreciate the thought, hingehead, but I might get in trouble for accessing that. (I work for a U.S. federal government agency.) Smile
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:31 am
An opinion essay by a former senior intelligence analyst in Australia's Defence Intelligence Organisation (DIO):

Quote:
Hardly the Pentagon Papers of our era
(Paul Monk, The Australian. January 04, 2011)

THE single most important reference point in the debate over the WikiLeaks case is the leaking of the Pentagon Papers to The New York Times, in 1971, by Daniel Ellsberg.

Those who see Ellsberg as a hero tend to see Julian Assange as one. Those critical of Assange tend to denounce what he has done for the same reasons and in the same language that Henry Kissinger used in 1971, when he described his old Harvard University colleague Ellsberg as "the most dangerous man in America".

Ellsberg himself has come out in support of Assange. But the differences between the Ellsberg and Assange cases are more important than the similarities. Ellsberg was a Harvard-educated economist who did his PhD on decision-making under uncertainty and worked at the highest levels of classification for the Rand Corporation and the Pentagon in the 1960s. He worked with a sense of patriotism and vocation. His job, as he saw it, was to help the US government think well and learn efficiently at the highest levels on matters of strategy and security.

Like many senior US officials, including the secretary of defence, Robert McNamara, he slowly came to the conclusion that the Vietnam War was a seriously misconceived, inefficient and ultimately immoral exercise in futility. In 1967, he was a member of a team of 30 analysts assigned by McNamara to review the whole history of decision-making that had led to the mess in Vietnam. The Pentagon Papers were the papers assembled and written by this team. Ellsberg leaked them four years later because he believed the lessons they laid out had not been learned and that the only way to help the republic overcome the problem was to take them to the most reputable newspaper in the country and inject them into public debate.

In Papers on the War, in 1972, Ellsberg wrote: "The urgent need to circumvent the lying and the self-deception was, for me, one of the 'lessons of Vietnam'; a broader one was that there were situations - Vietnam was an example - in which the US government, starting ignorant, did not, would not, learn. There was a whole set of what amounted to institutional 'anti-learning' mechanisms working to preserve and guarantee unadaptive and unsuccessful behaviour: the fast turnover in personnel; the lack of institutional memory at any level; the failure to study history, to analyse or even record operational experience or mistakes; the effective pressures for optimistically false reporting at every level, for describing 'progress' rather than problems or failure, thus concealing the very need for change or for learning. Well, helping the US government learn - in this case, learn how to learn - was something, perhaps, I could do; that had been my business."

Compare this with Assange's outlook, in essays written in 2006 under the titles "State and Terrorist Conspiracies" and "Conspiracy as Governance." Describing the US government as an authoritarian conspiracy, he declared that his strategy was to disrupt its ability to share information and thus disable the functioning of the "conspiracy". He wrote, as if this constituted a profound insight into the workings of government: "We can marginalise a conspiracy's ability to act by decreasing total conspiratorial power until it is no longer able to understand, and hence respond effectively to its environment . . . An authoritarian conspiracy that cannot think efficiently cannot act to preserve itself."

In other words, Assange set out not to help the US government learn, but to prevent it from learning, from "thinking" effectively at all. He wants to cripple it.

The difference between these two points of view or objectives could hardly be greater. But ironically, the leaks show that the US government is not an "authoritarian conspiracy" at all. They show, notably in the case of relations with the Arab states of the Middle East, an American government served by generally candid diplomats, trying to keep its balance and think its ways through a devilishly challenging set of problems, chief among them how to dissuade the theocratic and dangerously anti-Semitic regime in Iran from developing nuclear weapons. They show nuance and scruple, not authoritarian conspiracy. They show honest assessments of world leaders such as the corrupt and domineering former KGB thug Vladimir Putin, or the corrupt and irresponsible Italian leader Silvio Berlusconi. Moreover, as Robert Gates, heir to McNamara, has pointed out, the leaks were possible precisely because the US government had been trying to circulate more information to more of its civil servants in order to facilitate learning. That was Ellsberg's agenda. Assange wants to prevent just such learning.

A good deal in the cables has been interesting, but that would surely be a frivolous criterion for assessing whether they were justified. In making such an assessment, we should weigh up several overriding considerations.

First, has there been a clear matter of public interest of an urgent nature that the leaks address, which might outweigh the possible harm they could cause? Second, do the leaks provide us with finished analysis laying out the judgments of senior officials, thus allowing us to assign responsibility for some misdeed or major error? Third, was the intention of those who leaked the material morally responsible, in the sense of a careful and discriminating judgment about the good intended?

The answers to each of these questions would appear to be "No". One imagines it was for these reasons that Larry Sanger, founder of Wikipedia, which is designed to help people learn and to do good, wrote to Assange and his colleagues, saying, "Speaking as Wikipedia's co-founder, I consider you enemies of the US, not just the government, but the people".

The problem, in short, is not leaks, but civic responsibility. Efforts to hold government to account and to understand the business of diplomacy need to bear this in mind and to design strategies that enhance responsibility in government, rather than simply trying to sabotage standard operating procedures.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:46 am
@wandeljw,
wandel, Thanks for posting this article; it makes clear the difference between Ellsberg and Assange in ways that helps me decide who is right and who is wrong. When I read Ellsberg's book, he said the same things about why he revealed the "inside secrets" of the way the false information grew into more false information that started the Vietnam war that went all the way to President Johnson. He even told us how and why he was privy to all the secret information that was exchanged between the captain of the ship in the Gulf of Tonkin and Washington DC.

Since reading his book, I've always felt high esteem for Ellsberg, and still do so today. We need more people like Ellsberg in Washington DC today to remove the chance of war on false information. If Ellsberg had been in DC when Bush wanted to start the Iraq war, Ellsberg would have surely done something to prevent it from growing into what we witnessed - especially with people like Colin Powell who lost all credibility and was essentially destroyed from his participation.

We shouldn't have to go through more wars on false information.

wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 06:17 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

wandel, Thanks for posting this article; it makes clear the difference between Ellsberg and Assange in ways that helps me decide who is right and who is wrong. When I read Ellsberg's book, he said the same things about why he revealed the "inside secrets" of the way the false information grew into more false information that started the Vietnam war that went all the way to President Johnson. He even told us how and why he was privy to all the secret information that was exchanged between the captain of the ship in the Gulf of Tonkin and Washington DC.

Since reading his book, I've always felt high esteem for Ellsberg, and still do so today. We need more people like Ellsberg in Washington DC today to remove the chance of war on false information. If Ellsberg had been in DC when Bush wanted to start the Iraq war, Ellsberg would have surely done something to prevent it from growing into what we witnessed - especially with people like Colin Powell who lost all credibility and was essentially destroyed from his participation.

We shouldn't have to go through more wars on false information.




Good point, CI. I also wish the government had someone like Ellsberg during the Iraq war. The Iraq military action was misconceived almost to the same degree as the Vietnam military action.
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 06:32 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:


I appreciate the thought, hingehead, but I might get in trouble for accessing that. (I work for a U.S. federal government agency.) Smile

Then perhaps you can tell us what AG Holder is looking at in his ongoing effort to charge Assange with something - anything - likely to stick in a court of law? All your postings reflect an approach de jure; de facto (ie to anyone who knows worldwide computer networks) however it will be impossible to ever shut down WikiLeaks and similar mirrors and imitators. I say again: impossible. You have to deal with things as they are (positive approach) not as you would like them to be (normative approach).

Technology moves faster than the law - this is the obvious elephant in the room you and your entire legal tribe seem to ignore throughout this discussion. That ignorance breeds contempt for the law; it does nothing to support it.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 06:40 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
You have to deal with things as they are (positive approach) not as you would like them to be (normative approach).


I agree. However, I do not want to give in to the idea that the loss of all privacy is inevitable because of technological advances.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 07:19 am
@wandeljw,
"All" loss of privacy isn't the issue here - "some" loss of privacy is known to be inevitable. Wanna bet on Holder's next move?Smile
BillW
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 10:17 am
@High Seas,
Holder and Obama Administration have had a number of good, solid law suits - people who really needed to be tried, convicted and do jail time. They passed on all of those, they will pass on this.

"All" loss of privacy is always an issue when it raises its head!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 11:43 am
@wandeljw,
What bothered me most about the Iraq war was our initial "shock and awe" campaign - while the politicians of this country try to inform the world that we try to minimize collateral damage. We ended up killing tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis for a ill-conceived, illegal, war, because Iraq was never a danger to US security.

When I visited Vietnam a couple of years ago, I visited the War Remembrance Museum in Saigon (Ho Chi Min City), and saw the aftermath of what agent orange did to the Vietnamese people, and the use of fire bombs during that war. Two Japanese photographers took pictures during that period, and the museum houses their pictures in one room. They are graphic and grotesque.

Americans do not understand very well how cruel our country is around this world. Just because we are the superpower doesn't give us the rights to start wars willy-nilly to kill and maim innocent people. We also get our own men and women killed and maimed in unnecessary wars while spending a fortune on military equipment and bombs. Our defense budget is way out of line with our ability to finance it. Our country represents only five percent of the world population. Simple logistics should tell us we cannot be the policemen of the world.

My 2 Cents worth of rant.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 11:57 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
We ended up killing tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis for a ill-conceived, illegal, war, because Iraq was never a danger to US security.


And how many hundreds of thousands of lives did we save already by ending the killings of the Kurds alone?????
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 12:04 pm
@BillRM,
We should not and cannot be the world's police. If you understood simple logistics, you would understand, but you are not too sharp in most areas of discussion that requires more than a 5th grade education.

You also fail to understand its history; they have been at war for more than a 1,000 years. Our temporary intrusion by killing more Iraqis was never a solution.

If you've been keeping up with the news on Iraq since our departure, there have been more killings - and they will continue regardless of whether we are there or not. That's the same with Pakistan-Afghanistan.

BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 12:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
So saving far more then our actions kill is a bad thing by your logic as they will just sooner and later kill each other in any case?

Also if they are going to end up killing each other by your logic in any case so what if we added a little tiny bit to the dead total as by your logic they are doom to one pointless war after another to the ends of time.

Somehow your logic is sadly lacking in all areas.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 12:19 pm
@BillRM,
You miss the whole points: that's not surprising.

1. We are not the world police.
2. We cannot afford to be the world police.
3. There are many countries in this world with genocide.
4. There are international laws against attacking sovereign countries.
5. Starting the Iraqi was was illegal and inhumane. One of the biggest world demonstration against this war happened when Bush informed the world about his plan to start his war. (Bush said he doesn't look at polls to make his decisions.)
6. It cost our country many unnecessary lives and expense. The cost of which many families lost loved ones, and only increased our national debt (that we cannot afford).
7. You have no concept of humanity. Killing is never justified to "save" others from getting killed. In our killing, we always kill innocent people; it's called collateral damage. A nice sanitary military term used often.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 12:31 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Interesting we stop a genocide and that is a bad thing if we do not stop all genocides.

International law is something to be respected even if by international law all nations have a duty to stop genocides.

The part about not attacking others countries is something we should honor but not the part about stopping genocides?

Who said we are the world police we do what is in our leadership think is in our best interest as all nations do from the beginning of time.

It cost our country thankfully few lives compare to almost any military actions or war we been in the last hundred years and is useful by itself in keeping our military sharp.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 12:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Killing is never justified to "save" others from getting killed.


So destroying Nazis Germany was wrong because in order to do so we kill whole cities worth of innocent Germans?

The moral thing to do is just to had watch them killing millions in death camps and if they had taken over the USSR wiping out hundreds of millions more to clear the land for their living space?

Your morals code off hands seem insane.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 01:08 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Killing is never justified to "save" others from getting killed.


So destroying Nazis Germany was wrong because in order to do so we kill whole cities worth of innocent Germans?

The moral thing to do is just to had watch them killing millions in death camps and if they had taken over the USSR wiping out hundreds of millions more to clear the land for their living space?

Your morals code off hands seem insane.


Well, your response implies that those civilians who were killed (among them many in POW-camps, btw, in hospitals and churches ...) that this prevented hundred of millions in the USSR to be killed?

Do you have any idea in which years most civilians were killed in WWII in Germany and when the bomb raids started?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 01:11 pm
@BillRM,
Just goes to show you have no ability to remember or learn our history of WWII.

How dumb are you? A minus 60? (That's IQ for your age group.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 01:18 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Do you have any idea in which years most civilians were killed in WWII in Germany and when the bomb raids started?

http://i53.tinypic.com/opcsvl.jpg
Source

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 01:26 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
My had been with those troops, who were the farthest eastward in Russia (as a medic).

I've got all his letters from there (more than 150) and ... his map:
http://i54.tinypic.com/svgh0w.jpg

This is the most eastern point, with the date, my father has written on the map when he was there
http://i56.tinypic.com/dgj8fo.jpg


I hope that helps a bit, Bill.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 01:32 pm
@BillRM,

BRM:
Quote:
Interesting we stop a genocide and that is a bad thing if we do not stop all genocides.


We don't have the capacity or wealth to stop all genocides of the world (many are long-term wars between factions); we have problems with keeping our own citizens safe from American-born terrorists and criminals. Our prison system costs more than funding of our schools.



BRM:
Quote:
International law is something to be respected even if by international law all nations have a duty to stop genocides.

You will never see that happening; history is proof.



BRM:
Quote:
The part about not attacking others countries is something we should honor but not the part about stopping genocides?

Your opinion has no legal standing in the world.

BRM:
Quote:
Who said we are the world police we do what is in our leadership think is in our best interest as all nations do from the beginning of time.

You are blind and stupid at the same time. That's because you have never studied why the wars in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan were started by lies by our own government.

BRM:
Quote:
It cost our country thankfully few lives compare to almost any military actions or war we been in the last hundred years and is useful by itself in keeping our military sharp.

With an ignoramus like you, you'll never understand ethics, humanity, or proper responsibility to our own citizens or the world at large. Few lives? Why even one? It's not our responsibility.
 

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