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Correcting the Principle of Identity

 
 
NoOne phil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 10:45 am
@guigus,
There are two elements at the foundation of logic, same and different.
Substitute equals and not equals in your argument for true and false--they are the same abstraction, then you will have an answer you might not expect.

One of the points of Plato's Parminides is that you cannot predicate of a first principle--i.e. an element.

Both equal and true means "not different." Works on logic today use the term true and false in meaningless ways, true to what, not true to what? Language starts with a convention of names and every principle that is true, is true to that convention. i.e. You learn to give your word, and you must learn how to keep it.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2010 04:34 am
@NoOne phil,
NoOne phil wrote:

There are two elements at the foundation of logic, same and different.
Substitute equals and not equals in your argument for true and false--they are the same abstraction, then you will have an answer you might not expect.

One of the points of Plato's Parminides is that you cannot predicate of a first principle--i.e. an element.

Both equal and true means "not different." Works on logic today use the term true and false in meaningless ways, true to what, not true to what? Language starts with a convention of names and every principle that is true, is true to that convention. i.e. You learn to give your word, and you must learn how to keep it.


Again: if you define (or "describe") truth as being the absence of difference, then you have that either:

1. Truth is the absence of difference itself, hence an absence, by which you are saying that truth does not exist.

2. Truth is the sameness of anything, by which you are saying that truth can only exist within identity, hence that all difference is false.

These are the two possible consequences of your definition (or whatever you call it): either truth does not exist, for being an absence, or it only exists as identity, hence difference does not exist. That is the reason you cannot equate truth with identity. Now please, instead of going again through the mantra of repeating your premises -- which I already know -- please answer to my objection above.
NoOne phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2010 04:45 am
@guigus,
Here it is. A thing exists. Its two elements are form, from which we abstract the binary no difference, and material difference, which is difference.
As things exist, (see Plato) these two elements cannot be said to exist. The part is not equal to the whole (see Aristotle on the two different meanings of part)
There fore everything is composed of these two nothings.

The wrong way to think of part is just a smaller thing, in which case you have a self referential fallacy, things define things.
These ideas, the two element metaphysics were what Plato and Aristotle were trying to develope. Aristotle was too stupid to do it. Plato was really good.

So, this is how things are created from nothing.

What Aristotle poited out, these are always part of something. Never exist alone.

So, this implies that one must think of reality as FLUID.

All we have is thing and nothing to work with. The elements are not things. they are, as Aristotle pointed out "parts" as seen in a non-traditional sense.

And, biologically, your body is composed of acquisition systems, some abstract form, others abstract material difference. One disregards material, the other discards form.

This gives us Two Fundamental Logic Systems. Now, see Language and Experience. To learn some basics.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2010 06:15 am
@NoOne phil,
NoOne phil wrote:
Here it is. A thing exists.


Amazing.

NoOne phil wrote:
Its two elements are form, from which we abstract the binary no difference, and material difference, which is difference.


If the two "elements" of a thing are "form," then they are already abstractions, but even so you "abstract" an identity (a "binary no difference") from them to magically get a "material difference," is that correct? How in the hell do you "abstract" material difference from two -- already abstract -- forms? It is the other way around: material difference is itself the way of abstracting from things.

NoOne phil wrote:
As things exist, (see Plato)...


So I must read Plato to become aware that "things exist"?

NoOne phil wrote:
...these two elements cannot be said to exist.


We have an agreement.

NoOne phil wrote:
The part is not equal to the whole (see Aristotle on the two different meanings of part)...


So I must read Aristotle to become aware that "the part is not equal to the whole"?

NoOne phil wrote:
There fore everything is composed of these two nothings.


Therefore? Where is your inference? You are concluding these two "elements" are everything based on your assuming this to be true (your conclusion is your premise): there is no "therefore" here. Besides, you forgot to mention what these two "nothings" are: calling nothing an "element" is hardly turning it into something, let alone telling us what it is -- especially if it is not, since it is nothing.

NoOne phil wrote:
The wrong way to think of part is just a smaller thing, in which case you have a self referential fallacy, things define things.


The only way for a part being smaller than the whole to result in self-reference is by its being already identical to that whole, by which the whole is also a part of itself. However, the concept of a "part" is already what you consider the "wrong way" of thinking about it: a part must miss another part of the whole, otherwise it is the whole itself. So I conclude you are in trouble.

NoOne phil wrote:
These ideas, the two element metaphysics were what Plato and Aristotle were trying to develope. Aristotle was too stupid to do it. Plato was really good.


Perhaps you should look somewhere else when it comes to stupidity.

NoOne phil wrote:
So, this is how things are created from nothing.


You mean, this is how nothing remains nothing, despite your asserting it is something.

NoOne phil wrote:
What Aristotle poited out, these are always part of something. Never exist alone.


Perhaps a formal quotation would come in handy here.

NoOne phil wrote:
So, this implies that one must think of reality as FLUID.


Although this one really came out of nothing, I agree.

NoOne phil wrote:
All we have is thing and nothing to work with.


Some would say "being and nothingness."

NoOne phil wrote:
The elements are not things. they are, as Aristotle pointed out "parts" as seen in a non-traditional sense.


You should really try to define your terms better. It would help you figure out the conceptual mess in which you are.

NoOne phil wrote:
And, biologically, your body is composed of acquisition systems, some abstract form, others abstract material difference. One disregards material, the other discards form.


Jesus.

NoOne phil wrote:
This gives us Two Fundamental Logic Systems. Now, see Language and Experience. To learn some basics.


Oh, I see.
NoOne phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2010 06:17 am
@guigus,
I figure, if you cannot comprehend that all logic is binary in nature, why in the hell are you sitting at a keyboard.

I am in a mess? Just think about it.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2010 06:19 am
@NoOne phil,
NoOne phil wrote:

I figure, if you cannot comprehend that all logic is binary in nature, why in the hell are you sitting at a keyboard.

I am in a mess? Just think about it.


I am sitting here waiting for you to address my objection.
NoOne phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2010 06:30 am
@guigus,
You have too high an opinion of me. I was never good enough to become an instructor at Stevie Wonders School for the Visual Arts.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2010 06:36 am
@NoOne phil,
I find it to be a very good thing that you share your work with the world for free.

I do have a few questions obout your work though! would you mind answering a few? Thanks Reasoning Logic
NoOne phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2010 06:50 am
@reasoning logic,
Sometimes I think I should pose a test for people before conversing with me.
Take for example my post on demonstrating how to multiply and divide a line by a line in Euclidean Geometry, written up in sketchpad and Mathcad.
No one had figured it out prior to my demonstration, never knew how to do the four basic moves in Euclidean Geoemtry, yet, could claim to demonstrate in much higher mathematics the invalidity of Euclidean Geometry. And that makes sense to them? Claiming the ability to do the complex, yet ignorant of the simple?

What is a guy to do?
Ask your question.

And anyone, who follows a train of tautologies, through identity, and then say that it is true, but then say true is determined by some moronic theory, what the hell! You call that intelligence?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Oct, 2010 07:17 am
@NoOne phil,
Thank you for the time to answer a few questions. I will post these questions in one of my threads so that I do not clutter up someone else's thread I will post them in this thread! http://able2know.org/topic/160800-1
Give me a few minutes and they will be there. Thanks
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2010 04:21 am
@NoOne phil,
NoOne phil wrote:

You have too high an opinion of me. I was never good enough to become an instructor at Stevie Wonders School for the Visual Arts.


Neither was you ever good in addressing the objections of others (perhaps because you have no answer?).

But you are very good in flattering yourself!
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2010 04:43 am
@NoOne phil,
NoOne phil wrote:

Sometimes I think I should pose a test for people before conversing with me.


Perhaps you can open your own site for philosophical discussion, in which you choose who will discuss with you?

NoOne phil wrote:
Take for example my post on demonstrating how to multiply and divide a line by a line in Euclidean Geometry, written up in sketchpad and Mathcad.
No one had figured it out prior to my demonstration, never knew how to do the four basic moves in Euclidean Geoemtry, yet, could claim to demonstrate in much higher mathematics the invalidity of Euclidean Geometry. And that makes sense to them? Claiming the ability to do the complex, yet ignorant of the simple?


Modern mathematicians should indeed learn some modesty from you.

NoOne phil wrote:
What is a guy to do?
Ask your question.


My question is: when are you going to answer to my objection?

NoOne phil wrote:
And anyone, who follows a train of tautologies, through identity, and then say that it is true, but then say true is determined by some moronic theory, what the hell! You call that intelligence?


Why don't you show your superior intelligence by answering to my objection? It would be much more effective than all these boring rhetorical offenses.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2010 07:29 am
Since it seems you will not address my objection, I will address it myself.

One could say that nothing that is different from itself can be true, since whatever is different from itself is not what it is. But is this the same as equating any truth to its own identity to itself? If so, then truth is identity. Even though this falsifies all difference, which leaves us a world in which everything is false, by becoming different from itself -- or changing -- all the time.

However, by examining the necessary identity between anything true -- including any truth -- and itself more carefully, we notice that, although nothing that is different from itself is true, this does not make any truth identical to its own identity to itself, but rather means that:

1. Whatever is true must be identical to itself.

2. All truth must be identical to itself -- since all truth is true.

One thing is the necessary identity between whatever is true and itself, which is true. Another thing is the necessary identity between the truth of whatever is true and itself, which is also true. And yet another thing is the necessary identity between the truth of anything and its necessary identity to itself, which uses truth to define truth -- as its own identity to itself -- hence is false.

Now it becomes clear that no truth is identical to its own identity to itself, which gives us back our beautiful, changing world.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Oct, 2010 08:23 am
In other words, the truth of something is the identity between that something -- as true -- and itself, not between its truth and itself: we should not confuse truth with whatever is true. So truth is not identical to identity, but rather to the identity between something true and itself, hence as much as that something remains true. And since the latter identity already depends on truth, it cannot be used as the definition of truth itself.
0 Replies
 
 

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