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Is Shirley Sherrod A Black Eye For The Obama Administration?

 
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 04:51 pm
@hawkeye10,
Your posts are only more evidence of the damage done to her hawkeye. Without Brietbart's slander you would have never known who she was. You certainly don't have a good opinion of her which is a direct result of Brietbart's slander and the resulting actions. It is only more evidence of the damage done to her.

You don't seem to understand that hawkeye but the courts will.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 04:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:

Something was said about her that was not true and which was clearly intended to cast her in a bad light. I

Something was said about her that was not true which was repeated on national news which resulted in her being fired, which resulted in more national news. Ultimately she was rehired but not without damage. The firing alone is proof positive of damage. Your comments and those of others on thousands of RW blogs and websites are only further evidence of her reputation being damaged.

She was harmed. There is little question as to that under any reading of the law. Would you hire her because of this incident? Would you support any future President hiring her because of this incident? If you answer NO to either question or if anyone answers NO then it pretty much meets the legal requirement of damage. This was all put into place by the actions of one man who is now being sued.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 06:21 pm
I have long been mystified by these events. Soon after the initial reports of the selected excerpts from her remarks to the NAACP were published, enough additional material was noted that put Sherrod's whole remarks in context. There was certainly nothing in the story she told about her own journey from activism to her view of the common troubles affecting the poor of all backgrounds that would warrant the loss of her job- or any retaliation at all for that matter. On the contrary I found it to be a heartfelt story of a personal journey that could resonate with most people - even those who may disagree with her politics.

It appears that many reporters - on both sides of the political divide - got the excerpt wrong on initial reading. Hard for me to understand why the Agriculture Department, which had clear responsibilities to understand the facts of the matter, was so eager to get rid of her based on something so easily self-explanatory as her speech. Just as hard for me to understand why no followup action has occurred to rectify the injustice done to her.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 06:38 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

I have long been mystified by these events. Soon after the initial reports of the selected excerpts from her remarks to the NAACP were published, enough additional material was noted that put her whole remarks in context. There was certainly nothing in the story she told about her own journey from activism to her view of the common troubles affecting the poor of all backgrounds that would warrant the loss of her job- or any retaliation at all for that matter. On the contrary I found it to be a heartfelt story of a personal journey that could resonate with most people - even those who may disagree with her politics.


Agreed.

Quote:
It appears that many reporters - on both sides of the political divide - got the excerpt wrong on initial reading. Hard for me to understand why the Agriculture Department was so eager to get rid of her based on something so easily self-explanatory as her speech. Just as hard for me to understand why no followup action has occurred to rectify the injustice done to her.


The Breitbart video was cunningly edited to make her seem like a real jerk.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 06:47 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

The Breitbart video was cunningly edited to make her seem like a real jerk.

Cycloptichorn


I agree with that. They took something out of context and thereby profoundly altered its meaning. However, I fault the Agriculture department, which had clear legal and moral responsibilities in the matter for (apparently at least) not considering the whole speech. Not much effort or time was required to understand the truth, and they had an obligation to do so. I am equally bewildered by the lack of followup action on the injustice done. I can appreciate Sherrod's refusal to seek the restoration of her position. However, I cannot rationalize the absence of any apology or disciplinary action for the Agriculture Secretary who failed to meet a clear responsibility. The whole story is clear enough and easy enough to understand that I don't see a realistic possibility of political backlash - even for those who would be concerned about that aspect of the matter.

A sad story.
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 07:36 pm
@georgeob1,
good posts george. As I noted before: the administration and the Ag dept dropped the ball on this one.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 07:37 pm
@georgeob1,
The Ag department jumped to conclusions without checking facts, that's true. They also jumped quickly based on the news cycle and how it was being pushed by Fox. Did the Ag department act badly? Yes. Did they act in response to the story put out by Brietbart? Yes. That is why the suit has merit.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 07:39 pm
@parados,
agreed
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 07:47 pm
@parados,
Actually I recall hearing the whole story of the speech - one that led me then to find and listen to it all - the next day on Fox news. Lots of news stories - from the right and left - get taken out of context for propaganda purposes by all the media, not just Fox news. However, the Agriculture Dept had clear legal and moral responsibilities to get it right - and doing so was easy and readily done - and they failed to do so. It was the Agriculture Department that inflicted the harm on Sherrod, and it is very likely they did it for the wrong reasons. Don't blame that on others.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 07:52 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
However, the Agriculture Dept had clear legal and moral responsibilities to get it right - and doing so was easy and readily done - and they failed to do so. Don't blame that on others.

You can argue that.

But they never would have acted in the first place without Breitbart. The entire point of libel is it causes harm because people believe it and act on it even if it isn't true. The Ag department acted which makes Breitbart responsible for libel since he printed the lie. You can argue the Ag department should have not acted but that is not what happened. The court won't be interested in speculation about what should have been checked out. They will only care about what did happen and what led up to it. The firing leads back to Breitbart no matter how you want to parse it. You are only arguing they shouldn't have believed the lie which becomes prima facia evidence that Breitbart did lie.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 09:51 pm
@parados,
Quote:
But they never would have acted in the first place without Breitbart. The entire point of libel is it causes harm because people believe it and act on it even if it isn't true. The Ag department acted which makes Breitbart responsible for libel since he printed the lie. You can argue the Ag department should have not acted but that is not what happened. The court won't be interested in speculation about what should have been checked out. They will only care about what did happen and what led up to it. The firing leads back to Breitbart no matter how you want to parse it. You are only arguing they shouldn't have believed the lie which becomes prima facia evidence that Breitbart did lie.
I like your reasoning...this means that I am not to blame for anything that I do wrong so long as I can locate a person with a screw loose who advocates or agitates for my wrong move..
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 09:59 pm
@parados,
Quote:
You don't seem to understand that hawkeye but the courts will.
Have you located even a single legal expert who claims that this suit has a likely chance of success if it goes to judgement?
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 11:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
Do you think parados has nothing better to do than speak to legal experts on this suit?

More to the point, do you think legal experts are fortune tellers?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Feb, 2011 11:58 pm
@plainoldme,
Quote:
More to the point, do you think legal experts are fortune tellers?
I think legal experts can generally tell when a prosecutor is loading up on charges with the express purpose of driving a plea, and when plaintiffs in civil cases are after something other than winning in the courtroom, for instance a gaining a cash settlement or harassing the defendant. We certainly see both often enough.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 12:36 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

You can argue that.

But they never would have acted in the first place without Breitbart. The entire point of libel is it causes harm because people believe it and act on it even if it isn't true. The Ag department acted which makes Breitbart responsible for libel since he printed the lie. You can argue the Ag department should have not acted but that is not what happened. The court won't be interested in speculation about what should have been checked out. They will only care about what did happen and what led up to it. The firing leads back to Breitbart no matter how you want to parse it. You are only arguing they shouldn't have believed the lie which becomes prima facia evidence that Breitbart did lie.


I think Hawkeye has this one right. The whole report was readily available on the Media (even on Fox news) the following day. It took only 25 minutes to review her own remarks in full, and from the clip it was evident she was reading from a prepared text or outline, which also was available. It appears the Secretary of Agriculture - a cabinet officer - reacted only from the summary initial reports and without offering Sherrod any opportunity to rebut his understanding. Moreover, unlike everyone in the media, he had specific moral and legal responsibilities to do justice to the employee involved - responsibilities shared by none of the media figures. Any manager or CEO in a business doing the equivalent of this would be held accountable by a court in a civil challenge, and would have paid dearly for his misdeed in comparable circumstances. That there were false or incomplete media reports wouldn't figure in the legal judgment at all: it was sufficent that the real record of what she actually said existed and was available to the Secretary. Slam dunk.

Initial news reports of events of all kinds are incompete or factually wrong all the time - it is the rule, not the exception. Any thinking person waits for at least the second round of reports after the initial questions and challenges are posed - even for a less consequential event. I understand your fury over the hated Fox news, but the fact is their venality and self promotion is no worse than their counterparts in the liberal media. Your outrage is both selective and self-serving and not at all persuasive to an objective observer.

I still have a very hard time understanding why there has been no apology or action to correct this injustice from the Administration.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 12:58 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I still have a very hard time understanding why there has been no apology or action to correct this injustice from the Administration
What injustice are you refering to?

Quote:
WASHINGTON — Flooded with apologies from everywhere, Shirley Sherrod got the biggest "I'm sorry" of all Thursday – from a contrite President Barack Obama, who personally appealed to the ousted worker to come back.

Sherrod, who was forced to resign on Monday because of racial comments she made at an NAACP gathering, was asked by Obama to rejoin the federal government and transform "this misfortune" into a chance to use her life experiences to help people, said White House press secretary Robert Gibbs.

Obama had stayed out of the public brouhaha that followed Sherrod's ouster from the Agriculture Department after a conservative blog posted a clip of the black woman's comments and portrayed her as racist. Once it became clear that the speech in question was advocating racial reconciliation, not racism, Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack apologized to her and offered her a new job Wednesday. Gibbs also apologized publicly "for the entire administration."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/22/shirley-sherrod-says-shed_n_655465.html
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 12:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I like your reasoning...this means that I am not to blame for anything that I do wrong so long as I can locate a person with a screw loose who advocates or agitates for my wrong move..

No, that isn't what I am saying. I am saying according to the defamation statute the person that first defames someone is legally responsible for that defamation if there is harm caused by the defamation. That isn't the same thing as allowing you to do anything as long as you blame another person.

Example.
If Z states that X killed someone and as a result B assaults X. B is still responsible for assault but Z is responsible for defamation. The assault by B would be evidence of the harm caused by Z. Z would not be responsible for assault.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 12:45 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Have you located even a single legal expert who claims that this suit has a likely chance of success if it goes to judgement?
A google search will find you several on both sides. Those saying she won't win are arguing that Sherrod is a public figure which requires a higher standard. That standard will require proving malice on Breitbart's part. That means he will have to reveal his sources to prove he didn't edit the tape. Not revealing his source will put him at a legal disadvantage since it might be hard for him to argue someone else edited it. Of course it raises the issue of whether all public officials are public figures. The widespread nature of the charge by Breitbart compared to the limited scope of her work makes it hard to think the public figure argument will hold up.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 12:47 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
I think Hawkeye has this one right. The whole report was readily available on the Media (even on Fox news) the following day.

By that time, Sherrod had been called a racist on national TV and been fired from her job. The damage had been done before the record was corrected.

You are making the argument that "It wasn't really defamation because people believed it before checking it out." That is a ludicrous argument and only supports the defamation charge.

joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 01:33 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Any manager or CEO in a business doing the equivalent of this would be held accountable by a court in a civil challenge, and would have paid dearly for his misdeed in comparable circumstances. That there were false or incomplete media reports wouldn't figure in the legal judgment at all: it was sufficent that the real record of what she actually said existed and was available to the Secretary. Slam dunk.

Two different things. Sherrod presumably could sue the government for her firing, but instead she's suing Breitbart for defamation. Those are entirely separate causes of action.
 

 
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