Widespread Support for Banning Full Islamic Veil in Western Europe

Not true.

That's why we have the iris scan has part of an ID.

In terms of the security issue, I find it strange that Orthodox and Ultraorthodox Jewish women, who wear wigs do not have to remove their wigs when passing through any security checkpoint.

While a wig does not cover the face, it could cover something positioned on the head of the woman, intent on an act of terrorism.

If women of the Islamic faith are forced to remove their veils because of security concerns shouldn't women who wear wigs be required to remove their wigs ?

I don't have a problem with requiring people to remove clothing at a security checkpoint as long as it is fairly applied, and there are reasonable steps made to be sensitive to the people being inspected (i.e. women should have the right to be inspected by women in cases that involve removing clothing).

Banning what people can wear while walking down the street is a fundamentally different issue.

I have the right to wear a mask while walking down the street.

Are you serious? its not a matter of security when someone wears a wig in the high street. That would exclude a large proportion of the male populace. In airports or where we are aware there might be security problem, veils, wigs or any concern might require removal that's not or never is a problem. I don't think the bus driver would want to check if you had a wig on before he checked your identity.

A bank that I frequent has a sign on the front door, "No sunglasses". I have seen stores that say, "No shoes, no shirt, no service".

But those are private organizations. I have mixed feelings about a government telling people what to wear or not wear, but one has to take the real problem of security into account.

There is Muslim garb where the face is exposed. I believe that it is called a hijab. That would be a good compromise.

That would not be a compromise for them, I'm afraid. I cant understand the reasoning behind its requirement, its not exactly a Muslim teaching, its more Arab . But that's not the question for us none muslims. I do believe many Muslim women object to its use. I often wonder when you see the vast majority who wear it are from KSA, if it is almost like a compulsory dress code?

Wigs, which are certainly worn by many others besides Ultra Orthodox Jewish women, are not a problem when one walks through metal detectors or scanning devices. They conceal no more than clothing would, and we don't generally ask people to strip naked at airports. And, in everyday life, wigs do not completely conceal the identity of the wearer.

In a Burka or veil we don't even know whether the concealed person is male or female. In day to day life, it makes identification of the person relatively impossible. It would make it easier to commit all sorts of non-violent crimes and elude detection, so it is a general law enforcement concern and not just one limited to national security.

The Koran does not dictate that women wear a burka. This appears to be more cultural than religious. Banning the use of full face coverings should not affect the person's religious worship or basic beliefs. It really infringes more on freedom of expression than on religious freedom.

In the West, there is antipathy toward extremist Muslims, and not entirely without some reason. While certainly not all Muslim extremists are terrorists, the identified terrorists do appear to be Muslim extremists. Even among those who do not advocate violence, there is often considerable anti-Christian and anti-Semitic sentiment voiced by Islamic extremists. And the traditional extremist female attire of the burka or veil has been forced on women as a method of oppression and control in Muslim countries. In addition, such modes of dress are meant to identify the wearer as a member of an extremist Muslim group, and many women living in the West are still pressured into wearing such identity obliterating garments. So, the sight of women in burkas and veils in Western Europe becomes an affront to women's rights groups, a problem for law enforcement and national security measures, and a challenge to certain Western religious beliefs and societal secular values. Banning the burka and veil becomes a way of forcing assimilation, and demanding some degree of external conformity with certain Western European majority values. It does send a clear message that certain aspects of extremist Islam are not welcome in these societies, and will not be tolerated, for a variety of reasons. Whether these banning measures will stand up to constitutional challenges remains to be seen.

While I'm not sure I agree with these attempts to ban burkas and veils, I see these moves more as curbs on freedom of expression than interference with religious practice and worship. Societies curb all sorts of religious practices when they collide with civil laws, and I feel that is reasonable and necessary in some instances. A society, or country can set its own secular standards for acceptable behavior. And I'm not sure that women really suffer by not being allowed to wear burkas and veils. There are other ways of achieving and maintaining modesty short of completely covering one's body and face with a loose fitting identity obliterating garment. But, that's my perspective as a Westerner.

excellent post firefly , well balanced.

Not everybody has that, in fact, I've never been subjected to it in all the countries I've visited, including the United States. So in the meantime, they are relying on you looking like your ID photo. Hard to do with just eyes.

http://us.cnn.com/

this poll is only on the us version of CNN

Me thinks we are looking at shades of the Arizona Immigration Law, where Liberals start mouthing off about how wrong and extreme something is, only to discover that it is they who are out of step with the American people.

You might call me a liberal, many socialist or those on the left in Europe support its ban. For many its an emblem of intimidation and it does not serve the majority of women and their rights. It infers that women are sex objects not to be respected unless they are beyond men's gaze.

In the French parliament, the members of the main opposition group, the Socialist Party, walked out and refused to vote.
The situation is/was similar in Belgium.

Do you have any source for your claim that "many socialist or those on the left in Europe support its ban"? (Actually, it isn't banned in any European country but Belgium. In Spain, the Senate has made a similar decision to the proposed legislation in France; Italy, the Netherlands, Austria and Switzerland are also considering bans.)

Besides that

Are you implying that a woman should not be allowed to dress like a "sex object"?

Banning burkas will never happen in the US. Civil rights, including the freedom of expression, is written into our Constitution.

how is that implying women cant dress as sex objects?

Let's try this slowly.

1. You stated that burkas "infer" that women are sex objects.
2. You support a law that prohibits women from wearing a burka.

These two statements, taken together, means that you support prohibiting women from dressing as sex objects.

Obviously not slow enough for you...Burqas hide the figure the face so to not attract the attention of men..It infers they are just sex objects, get it..when did I support the banning?

Maybe I am confusing your position....

Should a woman who wants to wear a burka be allowed to wear a burka?

(I thought your position was that women shouldn't be allowed to wear them).

Are you familiar with the word coercion ? Try this; should a woman who wants to be subject to the penalty of honor killing per her religious beliefs be able to sign a release document to that affect?

My position is simple.

1. No one should be able to coerce a woman to wear a burka.
2. If a woman wants to wear a burka, that is her right.

These simple principles apply to any article of clothing, from bras to bikinis to baseball caps to crucifixes.

I am curious how you propose to stop women who want to wear burkas from wearing burkas. What punishment would you suggest is appropriate?

(p.s. We are all against honor killing.)

How do you plan to police that?
Write legislation that specifically bans the public wearing of leashes, bondage masks, Burkas, and other articles/ornaments that signify dominance of one human over another in public places; with an escalating series of fines for multiple offenses.

Of course we do; I worded that question carefully to demonstrate where your ideal runs smack into coercive forces that cannot be adequately policed directly. Have you considered the coercion angle? Or are you satisfied to stand on your ideal without considering obvious ramifications of same?