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Widespread Support for Banning Full Islamic Veil in Western Europe

 
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 03:36 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:

So you can walk through your city's main street naked, because you like to so?


I don't think that nakedness should be banned either...but, the big issue here is prejudice toward a single culture.

In the US, in addition to the Jewish yarmulkes, you also see Indian women with red dots on their foreheads, Jamaicans with dreadlocks, Sikhs with turbans and, of course, quite a few crosses.

No one seems to have a problem with any of these other things.


Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 03:55 pm
I think you're going off on a tangent here, ebrown - the issue is SECURITY, which supercedes an individual's rights. Wear the veil, but if we ask you to temporarily remove it for security, ie identification, take the damn thing off.

You can't expect Customs and Immigration and other like bodies to be able to tell the difference between Amal and Kamal just looking at their eyes. They need to see the whole face, eyebrows, nose, mouth, chin, etc. Get real.

And it wouldn't matter which culture was doing it, I believe the response would be the same. Read more into it if you want, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

Edit: As usual.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 05:36 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

No one seems to have a problem with any of these other things.


Well, that's different here in Europe.

For instance, there are a couple of countries, where you aren't allowed to enter banks/public buildings etc with (full) bicycle helmets, shawls around your face ...

Though there are quite often some naked people , for instance, cycling in towns, generally this is only tolerated in certain cases ...



hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 05:49 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Though there are quite often some naked people , for instance, cycling in towns, generally this is only tolerated in certain cases

I was tripping out the first time I noticed young people having sex way out in the open in Englischer Garten , in Munich of course. It was not really allowed, but no one seemed to mind. The only strong objection I ever heard from my German friends was about fat people who insisted on going nude.

Another trip was seeing boys and girls as old as 7-8 nude in the fountains, I presume this has changed.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:21 pm
@Mame,
No Mame. Security does not supersede an individuals rights.

In fact, in the US we have many rights (including at least 5 of the original Bill of Rights ) that specifically put rights over security.

It would be so much easier for the US to fight terrorism if we could use cruel and unusual punishment, if we could listen search peoples homes without a warrant and probable cause, if we could stop people from associating or if we could jail people without a trial.

Yet the Bill of Rights keeps us from doing these things and guarantees freedom of religious expression.

... at least it used to.

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:25 pm
@Mame,
The issue isn't just security, at least not in France. In fact, security doesn't seem to be a big part of it at all.

Quote:

“Supporters of a ban on full-face veils in France argue that wearing garments which hide women’s faces violates the republican ideals of secularism and gender equality.”


So, it is allegedly more of a women's rights issue. The Western value of female equality is seen as being inconsistent with extreme forms of Islam.

It is also a move toward secularism. In 2004, France instituted a controversial ban on the wearing of religious symbols and clothing in schools. This also included Islamic head scarves.

Of course, banning the veil and the burka do interfere with a woman's freedom of choice and expression. That's providing that the woman has not been pressured into wearing such apparel.

For that reason, I have very mixed feelings about instituting such bans.

Security issues aside, I do think most Westerners feel uncomfortable about interacting with people whose faces are covered. We want to be able to identify people by facial features, and we want to be able to read facial expressions and cues. It is an important aspect of our social interactions.

I do think Western Europe wants Islamic extremists to feel unwelcome in their midst. I don't know whether this is religious intolerance or simply fear, based on their association with the threat of terrorism. The veil and the burka are highly visible symbols of more extreme forms of Islam, and banning them sends a strong message about what is acceptable or unwanted in a society. It would be an attempt to force assimilation, and, perhaps, an attempt to decrease immigration of more extreme Muslims to these countries.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:32 pm
@firefly,
France has big problems... and it isn't Muslims.

France has always been a prejudiced, closed society that locks immigrants into a permanent underclass for generations. It is not surprising that the United States has had a much better experience with assimilating immigrants from Italians and Germans to the Irish to Asians (with a relatively few hiccups).

France should be learning from the example of the United States... not the other way around.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:38 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
The veil and the burka are highly visible symbols of more extreme forms of Islam, and banning them sends a strong message about what is acceptable or unwanted in a society.


Extremism means hatred and violence. Extremism does not mean expression or culture or clothing. Saying that clothing is "extremism" is misleading at best and represents prejudice, particularly the idea that "different" is dangerous.

Forty years ago, it was the Communists we hated and feared. Do you remember Joe McCarthy? Do you remember John Birch? They used our fear and prejudice to justify taking away people's rights. In my view... they were the real extremists.

Clothing does not make you an extremist. Hatred and fear make you an extremist.


0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 07:48 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

How do you free someone from "indoctrinated oppression" by taking away their rights?

It really makes no sense.

Yes it does make sense. How many women have been brutally taught to obey this or that asshole's demented version of Sharia Law? Taking away the right of the oppressor to oppress is more compelling than maintaining an individual's right to be that anonymous. There is a clear public interest served by mandating the ability to identify the individual.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 08:24 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
What is wrong with freedom, Bill?

There are all sorts for us to make a better, more inclusive and more just society. Education is the best way to ensure women's rights. Access to social services is crucial. Building bridges between minority groups and society in general is great. Making sure that violence and abuse is treated seriously and strongly prosecuted is effective and necessary.

Telling women what they can and can't wear is not a way to help women. Spreading fear and suspicion about an ethnic minority is not a way to help women.

Don't you find it a bit ironic that the people ranting about the repression of "Sharia law" are the ones trying to restrict what women can wear?

(PS: You are not taking away the rights of oppressors. You are taking away the rights of women, who, after all, do have the ability to think for themselves.)
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:54 pm
@ebrown p,
You are fooling yourself if you believe the wearing of the burka or the full Islamic veil is a women's rights issue. This is easily corrected repression on an instantly enforceable basis. Give it a generation, and people will all but forget such an absurdity used to be forced on women in public. Contrast that with your education suggestion that may take centuries to take hold. I'm no bigot, eBrown, but I freely admit to having a strong aversion to some of the more extreme Muslim practices and do consider a great many of them human rights violations. In short, I find women's equality no less compelling than you do opposing prejudice of seemingly every other stripe.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 10:00 pm
@ebrown p,
Well, when you look back in history - there weren't really a lot of European countries in the past centuries which were founded by immigrants, like the USA, Canada, Australia ...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 10:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Well, when you look back in history - there weren't really a lot of European countries in the past centuries which were founded by immigrants, like the USA, Canada, Australia ...
nor are there very many advanced countries where a major brick in their economic system is a huge steady supply of cheap exploitable labor.

No other nation should feel compelled to accept the guilt trip about immigration and how to treat immigrants that America tries to lay on them, America's perspective is unique. America pressured Europe into taking in large numbers of Africans after the close of colonialism, and look how well that has worked out.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 10:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
Yes we can see Thât
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 10:46 pm
BAN ME
Pepijn Sweep
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 10:46 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
GIVE UP
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:50 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Quote:
GIVE UP


You're funny Laughing
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2010 12:47 am
@hawkeye10,
Firefly said:
Quote:
Security issues aside, I do think most Westerners feel uncomfortable about interacting with people whose faces are covered. We want to be able to identify people by facial features, and we want to be able to read facial expressions and cues. It is an important aspect of our social interactions.

which reminded me of seeing a woman in a burqa with her baby and I had to ask myself what effects covering the mother's face had on the mother/child bonding process.
And then I thought, well, they probably don't wear them at home- but then I thought- maybe it'd be even more disconcerting to the baby to see his/her mother's face at home and then have their mom transformed into something else or seemingly disappear , at least visually whenever they (object permanence/concrete vs. abstract reasoning phase in developmental cognition) .
So I looked to see if there were any studies. I didn't find anything - but I found this.

I think this is very interesting- maybe beyond being a cultural or political or gender issue - it truly is a violition of human rights:
Quote:
Women could endanger their health by wearing burqas
By Adriana Stuijt.


Forget evening dresses and bikinis. The girls who participate in a ten-week-long beauty contest in Saudi-Arabia are disguised in black burqas. And the winner will be the woman with 'the greatest 'inner beauty'.
Rickets:
The burqas are very controversial among health authorities in Western countries, who are increasingly having to deal with the often very serious medical consequences suffered by the growing number of Islamic women who are now migrating into Western Europe, but who are also still being coerced into wearing the burqa mainly through family pressure and imams at their local mosques.
Medical experts in the West warn that Islamic women wearing these all-encompassing burqas in the northerly climates, which have far less sunshine, suffer much more from osteoporosis due to a lack of Vitamin D.
The garments don't let through enough sunshine. And their newborn babies are prone to getting more seizures for the same reason.
"In Ireland, which is experiencing a large influx of muslim immigrants at the moment, women wearing the burqa, doctors are warning, 'are at increased risk of pelvic fractures during childbirth because of vitamin D deficiency due to a lack of sunlight. "And babies born to women with vitamin D deficiency are also more prone to seizures in their first week of life," according to Dr Miriam Casey, expert in Medicine for the Elderly at the Osteoporosis Unit in St James’s hospital in Dublin. The burqa - an all-enveloping outer garment, does not allow enough sunlight through to give women sufficient vitamin D, she warns.
However it's not known whether the young women who are participating in the beauty contest in Saudi Arabia, might be suffering from rickets -- the condition caused by vitamin-D deficiencies.
Inner beauty contest does not consider health issues of the Burqa

Map of Saudi Arabia. Image: http://www.theodora.com
Like • 2 people liked this
However, the 'inner-beauty' contest in Saudi Arabia does not consider their physical health, as opposed to a recent incident during a beauty contest in the West, when a contestant failed to win the beauty title because she looked very 'anorexic'.
What makes the situation doubly tragic is that women who are constantly being denied access to direct sunlight, can be cured very easily: basically, treatment against rickets involves more exposure to sunshine, and increased dietary intake of HGH, phosphates. Especially important would be exposure to ultraviolet B light (sunshine when the sun is highest in the sky), cod liver oil, halibut-liver oil, and viosterol are all sources of vitamin D. Basically, if they didn't have the burqa, they would be healthy.
A sufficient amount of ultraviolet B light in sunlight each day and adequate supplies of calcium and phosphorus in the diet can prevent rickets. Also important: darker-skinned people need to be exposed longer to its ultraviolet rays. The replacement of vitamin D has been proven to cure rickets using these methods of ultraviolet light therapy and medicine. see
The contest starts on Saturday in the Islamic country and will be judged by a female jury for a whopping ten weeks. The entire country is ruled by Sharia law. Women are not allowed to drive cars, have their own bank accounts, cannot go shopping without male relatives, and are allowed outdoors only when enveloped in the familiar, thick black shrouds.
Two hundred girls have signed up for the contest, aged from fifteen to 25 years.Associated Press interviewed one hopeful, Sukaina al-Zayer, writing: "She covers her face and body in black robes and an Islamic veil, so no one can tell what she looks like. She also admits she's a little on the plump side."
But at Saudi Arabia's only beauty pageant, the judges don't care about a perfect figure or face - nor about their health.
.
What they're looking for in the quest for "Miss Beautiful Morals" is the contestant who shows the most devotion and respect for her parents.
"The idea of the pageant is to measure the contestants' commitment to Islamic morals... It's an alternative to the calls for decadence in the other beauty contests that only take into account a woman's body and looks," said pageant founder Khadra al-Mubarak."The winner won't necessarily be pretty," she added. "We care about the beauty of the soul and the morals."
So after the pageant opens Saturday, the nearly 200 contestants will spend the next 10 weeks attending classes and being quizzed on themes including "Discovering your inner strength," "The making of leaders" and "Mom, paradise is at your feet" — a saying attributed to Islam's Prophet Muhammad to underline that respect for parents is among the faith's most important tenets.
Pageant hopefuls will also spend a day at a country house with their mothers, where they will be observed by female judges and graded on how they interact with their mothers, al-Mubarak said. Since the pageant is not televised and no men are involved, contestants can take off the veils and black figure-hiding abayas they always wear in public.
The Miss Beautiful Morals pageant is the latest example of conservative Muslims co-opting Western-style formats to spread their message in the face of the onslaught of foreign influences flooding the region through the Internet and satellite television.
A newly created Islamic music channel owned by an Egyptian businessman aired an "American Idol"-style contest for religious-themed singers this month. And several Muslim preachers have become talk-show celebrities by adopting an informal, almost Oprah-like television style, in contrast to the solemn clerics who traditionally appear in the media.
Now in its second year, the number of pageant contestants has nearly tripled from the 75 women who participated in 2008. The pageant is open to women between 15 and 25. The winner and two runners up will be announced in July, with the queen taking home $2,600 and other prizes. The runners up get $1,300 each.
Last year's winner, Zahra al-Shurafa, said the contest gives an incentive to young women and teens to show more consideration toward their parents."I tell this year's contestants that winning is not important," said al-Shurafa, a 21-year-old English major. "What is important is obeying your parents."

Fanoos Miss Lebanon Contests
Saudi Arabia holds beauty contests for women who are wrapped up entirely in burqas. The women are judged by their 'islamic values and inner beauty'. The Sharia-ruled country also views the Miss Lebanon beauty contest as "un-islamic."
Like • 2 people liked this
There are few beauty pageants in the largely conservative Arab world.
The most dazzling one, for years, has been in Lebanon, the region's most liberal country, where contestants appear on TV in one-piece swimsuits and glamorous evening gowns and answer questions that test their confidence and general knowledge.
There are no such displays in ultra-strict Saudi Arabia, where until Miss Beautiful Morals was inaugurated last year, the only pageants were for goats, sheep, camels and other animals, aimed at encouraging livestock breeding.
This year's event kicks off Saturday in the mainly Shi'ite Muslim town of Safwa, and mostly draws local Shi'ite contestants. But it's open to anyone — and this year, 15 Sunni Muslims are also participating, al-Mubarak said. "This is a beautiful thing," she added.
There have long been tensions between the two sects in the kingdom. Hard-liners in the Sunni majority consider Shi'ites infidels, and the Shi'ites often complain of discrimination and greater levels of poverty.
Al-Zayer, a 24-year-old international management student, said she signed up because she is the "spitting image" of her mother. "I'm proud of my devotion to my parents," she said.
What does she think of Lebanon's beauty contests?"It's a matter of cultural differences," she said. "In Saudi Arabia, they are Islamically unacceptable."
The decision will fall in July. The woman with the most beautiful soul will win 2,600 dollars.It's not known whether she'd be allowed to keep it, though.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2010 04:17 am
I'm not getting into the argument about women's rights in an Islamic culture, that is completely different subject. Why is it considered a backward step to consider the full veil being banned in certain circumstances. We are not like France that intend banning all veils or religious jewelry. We are not like KSA who will not even let Christians openly worship their god and destroy bibles when discovered. This is considering a mask, a mask that stops us from seeing or even knowing the sex of the wearer. We should be capable of debating it without being classified as prejudiced, surely? Why should religious freedoms dictate our secular laws? Jedi Knights have become an accepted faith, should they be able to carry light sabres into banks. It may sound silly but can we dictate to others on the sense of their faith? Non secular necessities in my opinion over ride religious peculiarities . If any of us feel the need to express our beliefs in any strange manner we must be prepared to suffer the consequences. I cant drink alcohol in certain countries or kiss my wife openly, is that then exerting a prejudice towards me? I have to accept their laws or leave.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jul, 2010 05:27 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

In the US, in addition to the Jewish yarmulkes, you also see Indian women with red dots on their foreheads, Jamaicans with dreadlocks, Sikhs with turbans and, of course, quite a few crosses.

No one seems to have a problem with any of these other things.



Sounds like Central Square in Cambridge, Ma to me.
0 Replies
 
 

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