You Can't Quote Scripture

K, so now that you have both more or less admitted that matter could NOT have existed without a creater

Matter, on the other hand could not have ALWAYS existed. It had to have come from somewhere.

If matter was capable of doing anything, I might believe that, but matters abilities are very limited, and while matter can form a mind, it has no mind of its own. So that whole matter already existed thing, that is impossible according to every scientific law.

Matter came from nothing? Are you even serious about that...that is just stupid.

K, so now that you have both more or less admitted that matter could NOT have existed without a creater

I will explain where God came from. He came from...drum roll please...nowhere! He always existed. He can do anything, which is why he can defy the laws of physics and exist without anything needing to create him. Pretty simple...not very scientific, but it does explain ALL science.

He came from...drum roll please...nowhere!

According to the theory, at one point there was NOTHING, then suddenly there was something. I am not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp, but that is simply NOT POSSIBLE.

He always existed.

Matter simply can NOT come from empty space.

You have to explain how something came from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

Matter, on the other hand could not have ALWAYS existed. It had to have come fro somewhere. If matter was capable of doing anything, I might believe that, but matters abilities are very limited, and while matter can form a mind, it has no mind of its own. So that whole matter already existed thing, that is impossible according to every scientific law.

So, you are saying it is rediculous that I believe in a God that has always existed, but it is perfectly rational for you to believe in matter that has always existed? hmmm...hypocrite.

Multiple big bangs? The big bangs, every single one of them, would still need some original matter to happen, where did the original matter come from?

Yes, it is impossible for something to come from nothing. Ever heard of the law of conservation of mass? Matter can not be created or destroyed, the mass of what you start with is the same as the mass you end with. That means that the only way matter could exist in the first place, is if someone could break the laws of physics. God would not need an origin, since he is above science, but matter absolutely CAN NOT exist unless God does.

Multiple big bangs? The big bangs, every single one of them, would still need some original matter to happen, where did the original matter come from?

Yes, it is impossible for something to come from nothing. Ever heard of the law of conservation of mass? Matter can not be created or destroyed, the mass of what you start with is the same as the mass you end with.

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then how did god create matter if it cannot be created nor destroyed?

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That means that the only way matter could exist in the first place, is if someone could break the laws of physics. God would not need an origin, since he is above science, but matter absolutely CAN NOT exist unless God does.

Assuming god is above the laws of physics is an unfounded assumption, since all known things in the universe are bound by the laws of physics, it would be illogical to assume god was the exception. It would be similar to reaching your hand into a giant bag of marbles and the last 9 billion times you've pulled out a blue marble assuming god is above the laws of physics is like assuming the 9,000,000,001 marble is going to be neon-green.

Why is everyone speaking of evolution as though it were impossible to disprove. Its true that creation and the Bible can never be proven false; but evolution is a theory based completely on physical evidence (and not very much evidence i might add). Any theory that does not involve the supernatural can be disproved. What is stopping creationists from accumulating enough evidence that contradicts this theory and disproving it.
In fact, I would argue that evolution had one flaw that made it impossible right from the start. At this point in time, no one has ever provided a sufficient explaination as to how the very first matter or energy came into existance. Matter simply can NOT come from empty space. According to the theory, at one point there was NOTHING, then suddenly there was something. I am not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp, but that is simply NOT POSSIBLE.
In order for something to come from nothing, someone would have to be capable of defying the laws of physics, or better yet, creating those laws in the first place. I challenge anyone to give me one plausible explaination for this. Remember, you would have to explain how either matter or energy came to exist without ANY ingredients, or any outside help. You have to explain how something came from ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

It's hard to convince a blind faith believer of anything else.

Your point of something coming from nothing is a very valid.

Yet believers of Evolution would say this is an unfair arguement, because no one was around to tell us how such a thing could be.

What evidence could be called upon to show us how something came from nothing? It's like asking if there is a brick wall at the end of the universe? Or how high is up? At this point something extra ordinary would of had to of taken place. Something that is beyond the natural, because it was before the natural.

The reality is, science alone will never be able to explain the universe we live in, because it is beyond science. Science can explain some of the simple workings in our own backyard, yet they try to do this only within the established laws of physics. To understand the universe and it's beginnings, you would have to lear to think outside the box. You would have to understand that there was a time that established laws did not apply. And on this point your right, because something cannot come from nothing.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Goodnight, everybody!



Not to Evolution.



Not so. It is an irrelevant argument because evolution does not need universe origins to work. It merely needs life to exist. Evo doesn't care where it came from, it applies to existing life. Where and how life originated is something completely different.

Before you start to question theories, you might want to ACTUALLY educate yourself to exactly what they are instead of spouting off Answers in Genesis verbatim (read blind faith comment).






Do you know for sure that the universe is intangible? If you can prove that, you not only have science's absolute attention, but you're looking at a Nobel or two.



You're above science and you can't even trump science in a courtroom? You believe in the supernatural. It's like believing in the zodiac or how the stars affect your life. Reincarnation. Virgins. Witchcraft. Valhalla. Hildskjalf. Ra and Set. Do you want to include these in your world? How can you say they don't exist when you yourself are not applying to any known boundaries?

At that point, how can someone else's faith or supernatural beliefs be wrong?

The universe is not intangible (now), yet do you believe everything always was?

Are you telling me the earth always was? Are you telling me all matter always was? And if all matter did not always exist, where did it come from?

Actually, I do believe in Witchcraft and other faiths, yet I believe those faiths are supported by someone other than God. And that person also has spiritual power, yet not equal to God, but often that person's power appears more obvious in it's application. My boundaries are established by the Bible and it's truth. And I will go one step more and tell you I have experienced the Author of the Bible, I have seen God's power demonstrated in my own lifes experiences.

You donot believe in the supernatural because you know nothing of it.

Your belief is limited to the laws of physics and you can't see past your own backyard. You have blinded yourself by your limited belief system. The God of the Bible tells us He will reveal Himself to those who seek Him. You will not seek him so you will not believe. The Bible tells us those who donot seek God, will die in their sins.

Tangible: capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind.

Great. Then you can tell me the exact nature of the universe. What's it's size, what's it's shape, where's it's center, how far away are we from the center (or it's edge)?

If you can both prove the tangibility of the universe and rap off these figures, start writing your Nobel acceptance speech now.



Matter can be converted. Touch a piece of matter to a piece of antimatter (I do not recommend doing this) and they annihilate themselves in a burst of energy and subatomic particles. Fusion converts matter into energy. Yes, some matter is lost in a fusion reaction.

So why not the other way around? *WE* don't know how to do this yet (i.e. replicators a'la Star Trek), but it can be done.

So a whole lot of it could be in the form of raw energy. Light, heat, whatever. Throw quantum physics in the mix and it's a whole 'nother ball of wax (still looking for the damn graviton!).



Examples?



I do not believe it because it breaks way too many well established laws and many strong theories. You can't change the laws of physics. You can't be above the laws of physics. I am a man of science. If it exists, science can explain it, given enough time. If it cannot be explained by science, it does not exist.



Oh well.

Science has explained, in great detail, how things work. Religion never really touches on that. The usual "God did it" is the answer to many questions.

Here's what I mean:

Where'd the Earth come from?

Christianity: God created it in six days. He said "Let there be (fill in blank)" and there it was.

Science: Earth was created by the accumulation of rock and debris left from the formation of a new star (the Sun) over billions of years. Here's some pictures of supernovae, star formation, the debris field around new stars, here's some mathematical calculations, age calculations, etc. etc. etc. so on and so forth.

Science explains it for me. It tells me how it works and shows me how it works. It gives me calculations I can do myself and see the results. If science finds something new or something that redefines what they know, it changes. It explains to me the reason for the change. If they didn't change it, they explain that one too.

Science does not expect me to believe in something that contradicts everything we know, to answer that which we don't know.

And yet the God of the Bible tells us we can know Him if we seek Him. And the God of the Bible tells us He can give us life eternal. How is it we will seek the knowledge offered to us by men. And yet we will not seek the knowledge offer to us by God? I have lived on this earth for 57 years now, and I can tell you, the God of the Bible is not just some historical person. Through the years of my life, God has time and time again revealed Himself to me. The truth is out there. Yet unless one really wants to know the truth, it can never be discovered. For some people science has become their God. Unless science tells them what is real, they will not believe. Science has it's truth, and so does the Bible. The Bible is a Book that speaks of the future, much of what is happening today in detail is spoken of in the Bible. Science did not show me the future, yet the Bible does.

The future can change.

The Bible can be interpreted in any way fit. Just like Nostradamus' predictions (you get those chain letters too I assume), you can make that prophecy fit damn near anything. It gives no dates, no modern locations, only a set of circumstances. I'm sure that if you look, you can make a prophecy fit TWO different occurances in history.

At about the same age you picked up your first Bible, I cracked open my first science book. I learned from an early age one simple idea. The universe and everything in it is here for more than just us. It wasn't created for us, it wasn't fine tuned for us. Why such a huge universe and such a tiny stage for everything that holds it in the balance? At that point, why isn't everything centered on us? We're not even in the center of our own galaxy, much less a universe full of billions of them.

So why would a creator, in all his infinite wisdom and power, need to create such an immense universe... just for one planet's worth of people? Creationists like to cite that the chances of life "randomly appearing" is something like twenty trillion to one against. What are the chances of this planet, this little speck in the ENTIRE universe, being the ONE place that the game goes down? You'd be writing zeros for a while.

Those are questions religion cannot answer.

Science teaches me how things work and why things are in ways that I can both comprehend and utilize. They show evidence and measurements, tests and findings. I can see it. I can understand it. I can even do it myself. This is truth. If science says something, it MUST explain itself. If science changes something, it MUST explain itself. It must have evidence to build theories. Theories are built on existing evidence, not the other way around. Darwin used all of the evidence he collected to build a theory. This theory stands today, evidence still pouring in to support it. Much of this evidence has made us rethink certain parts, but the basic concept of evolution has not been shown to be incorrect.

Science is my truth.

The Bible has powerful evidence as well, and that evidence does not change.
Today we see the stage being set up for the fulfillment of the greatest story ever told, and most people out there don't even have a clue. Often what science presents to you today as truth, will be changed for a new generation tomorrow. The Bible is not that way. The universe reveals the Glory of God. The Bible can be interpreted in anyway, by anyone who does not seek God first. God told us, that His Spirit would teach us all things. I have found this to be the case. God is there for those who seek his knowledge. And God will reveal the hidden things of His Book to those who desire His truth. God will never force anyone to believe in Him. The Bible only points the way. It's up to you to consider or reject.

the bible doesn't change but the translations and interpretations of it do!

If you read the bible thoroughly you will notice god commands death for a lot of things, such as god commanding the death of any christian who works on sunday, yet most churches today will teach that killing someone because they worked on sunday is wrong....this is but one example!

the bible doesn't change but the translations and interpretations of it do!

If you read the bible thoroughly you will notice god commands death for a lot of things, such as god commanding the death of any christian who works on sunday, yet most churches today will teach that killing someone because they worked on sunday is wrong....this is but one example!

And what about these "omitted" books we keep hearing about?

Not all books and letters written were going to make it into the Bible. And there was a group called the Gnostics who would of like some of their writings in the Bible as well, yet they were trying to mix Greek Philosophy and Christianity together. The Christians of the day knew these Books opposed Biblical truth and they were rejected. You could not have the Bible telling you Jesus was raised from the dead, and then having another Book inserted that said that He was not. Christians believe He was. Gnostics did not believe the accounts of the Bible. Just as some people donot believe the accounts of the Bible today.

Could you quote me chapter and verse where the Bible teaches us that people should be put to death for working on Sunday? And I'm not intrested in other people's translations or their interpretations. The Bible tells us if you seek the truth the Holy Spirit will teach us these things, not other people, or their interpretations.

"The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' " (Exodus 31:12-15)