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JESUS Was MUSLIM !

 
 
mako cv
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2009 05:09 am
@SWORD of GOD,
Since you are advocating the Islamic religion and the book of mythology that it is based on and since all you seem to do is cut and paste, I thought I would return the favor:

The Archeological Evidence against Islam

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Muslims are adamant in asserting that the Qur?an is the final true word of God. However the historical reliability of Islam has been challenged by contemporary scholarship. Manuscript, documentary and archaeological evidence all fail to confirm the claims of Islam. In the last issue (Isa Masih no. 6, p8-9) we exposed the gaps in qur'anic manuscript evidence, and revealed apocryphal sources for much of the Qur?an?s borrowed mythology. Here, we explore the mounting case against Islam from external documentary sources and modern archaeology.
Non-Muslim Sources

The Jews
The Qur?an implies that Muhammad severed his relationship with the Jews in 624 AD, soon after the Hijra (migration to Mecca). At that time the direction of prayer, the Qibla, was moved from Jerusalem to Mecca (Sura 2:144, 149-150).

However, non-Muslim sources, the Doctrina Iacobi and the Armenian Chronicle of 660 AD, maintain the Arabs and the Jews were allies as late as 640 AD, during the conquest of Palestine. Muhammad established a community of Ishmaelites and Jews based on their common birthright to the Holy Land. This relationship endured at least 15 years beyond the qur'anic date.


Mecca
According to the Qur?an, Mecca was the first and most important city in the world. Adam placed the black stone in the original Ka?ba (sanctuary) there, while Abraham and Ishmael rebuilt the Meccan Ka?ba centuries later (Sura 2:125-127). Mecca was allegedly the centre of Arabian trading routes before Muhammad?s time.

Yet there is no archeological corroboration for this. Such a great ancient city would surely have received a mention in ancient history. However, the earliest reference to Mecca as a city is in the Continuato Byzantia Arabica, an 8th century document. Mecca is certainly not on the natural overland trade routes- it is a barren valley requiring a one hundred mile detour. Moreover, there was only maritime Graeco-Roman trade with India after the first century, controlled by the Ethiopian Red Sea port Adulis, not by the Arabs. If Mecca was not even a viable city, let alone a great commercial centre until after Muhammad?s time, the Qur?an is seriously in doubt.


Archaeology

Qibla
According to the Qur?an, the direction of prayer (Qibla) was canonized towards Mecca for all Muslims circa 624 AD, two years after the Hijra (see Sura 2:144, 149-50). Yet the earliest archaeological evidence from mosques built at the beginning of the 8th century suggests their sanctuary was located a long way north of Mecca, closer to the vicinity of Jerusalem.

The Qibla of the first mosque in Kufa, Iraq, constructed in 670 AD, pointed west instead of due south. Likewise, floor plans from two later Umayyad (650-750 AD) mosques in Iraq, demonstrate their Qiblas were oriented too far north. The Wasit mosque is off by 33 degrees, the Baghdad mosque by 30 degrees. The ?Amr b. al ?As mosque near Cairo, again pointed too far north and had to be corrected under a later governor.

Jacob of Odessa, a Christian writer and traveller, was a contemporary eye-witness writing in Egypt around 705 AD. His letter in the British Museum maintains the ?Mahgraye? (Greek term for Arabs) in Egypt prayed facing east, towards their Ka?ba, the place of their patriarchal origin- in other words towards Palestine, not Mecca.

Thus the evidence points to a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Qur?an and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions ordering the demolition and enlargement of all mosques. Could it be the Qibla only then shifted to Mecca?



Dome of the Rock
A possible answer as to why early mosques face towards Palestine is found in Jerusalem

In the city centre lies the ?Dome of the Rock?, an imposing structure built by ?Abd al-Malik in 691 AD. It is considered the third holiest site in Islam, after Mecca and Medina. It seems to have been intended as a sanctuary rather than a mosque, as there is no Qibla and its octagonal design indicates it was used for circumambulation. Muslims believe it commemorates the Mi?raj, the night Muhammad went up into heaven to speak to Allah and Moses regarding the number of prayers required of believers.

Yet the inscriptions on the walls of the building say nothing of the Mi?raj but are polemical qur?anic quotations, aimed primarily at Christians. Perhaps this imposing building was built instead as the early sanctuary of Islam, before the adoption of Mecca. This is logical given Muhammad?s intention to reclaim the land of his birthright.

Certainly Muslim tradition suggests the Dome of the Rock may have been the early religious centre for Islam. The caliph Suleyman, who reigned up to 717 AD, went to Mecca to ask about the Hajj. He was not satisfied with the reply, and chose instead to follow ?Abd al-Malik, travelling to the Dome of the Rock.

Could it be that the Qiblas of the early mosques were aligned to the Dome of the Rock until the edict of Walid I in the early 8th century?


Nevo?s inscriptions
The late Yehuda Nevo from Jerusalem University extensively surveyed Arabic rock inscriptions, scattered over the Negev and Syro-Jordanian deserts. His research gives a useful picture of the historical Muhammad from contemporary non-Muslim sources.

In the Arab religious texts from the earliest Sufyani period (661-684 AD) there is a monotheistic creed but a complete absence of any reference to Muhammad. His name is only found on Arab inscriptions after 690 AD. The formula Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is God?s prophet) occurs first on an Arab-Sassanian coin from 690 AD, struck in Damascus. More importantly, the first appearance of the Triple Confession of Faith including the Tawhid (God is one), Muhammad rasul Allah (Muhammad is his prophet) and rasul Allah wa-?abduhu (the human nature of Jesus) is in ?Abd al-Malik?s inscription at the Dome of the Rock, dated 691 AD. Before this the Muslim confession of faith cannot be substantiated.

Hence, for a full 60 years after the death of Muhammad, the official Arab religious confession did not include Muhammad in its set formulae. Instead it revealed a monotheistic belief, developing Judaeo-Christian concepts in a particular literary style. When the Muhammadan creed is introduced, during the Marwanid period (after 684 AD) it appears almost overnight as the only form of official religious declaration in formal documents. It seems that Muhammad?s elevation to the status of universal prophet did not occur until the late 7th century, long after his death.



The Qur?an
Evidently the Qur?an underwent a transformation during the 100 years following the Prophet?s death. Recognisable qur?anic writings appear on coins and on the Dome of the Rock during the reign of ?Abd al-Malik from 685 AD, but they differ from the official qur?anic text today. The Qur?an cannot then have been canonized during Muhammad?s lifetime, but must have undergone a process of evolution. Indeed the earliest reference to a book called the Qur?an fr a sanctuary located not in Mecca, but in northern Arabia or even Jerusalem, until the early 8th century. It cannot be that the early Muslims wrongly estimated the direction of Mecca. They were desert traders and caravaners, adept at travelling by the stars. How else did they perform the obligatory Hajj, which was also canonized at this time? There is a serious discrepancy between the Qur?an and modern archaeology. Crucially, Walid I, who reigned as Caliph between 705 and 715, wrote to all the regions order?an maintains is at odds with historical data from the 7th-8th centuries. Specifically:

? The Jews retained a relationship with the Arabs until at least AD 640, not 624 AD
? Mecca was not the first and most important city in the world; it was unknown until the end of the 7th century and was not even on the international trade route
? The Qibla (direction of prayer) was not fixed towards Mecca until the 8th century but to an area further north, possibly Jerusalem
? The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem was possibly the original sanctuary
? Muhammad was not known as the Seal of the Prophets until the late 7th century; the creeds from Muhammad's time contain a monotheistic religion but no Muhammadan formulae
? The earliest we even hear of the Qur?an is not until the mid-8th century
? The earliest qur?anic writings on coins and on the Dome of the Rock do not coincide with the current qur?anic text This suggests the Qur?an we now read is not the same as that which was supposedly collated and canonized in 650 AD by Uthman. The earliest qur?anic manuscripts in our possession today (dating from 790 AD) would appear to reflect an evolution in the qur?anic text. This challenges the Muslim contention that the Qur?an contains the original and exact revelation of Allah, as recited by Muhammad and hence strikes at the very heart of the Islamic faith. The Qur?an has in the past been protected by a kind of doctrinal embargo- but can Muslims ignore the mounting tide of evidence to the contrary?

Adapted from the following internet articles by Jay Smith:

CONTENTS
"Is the Qur'an the Word of God?" - Contents
The Qur'an :patriot:
SWORD of GOD
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2009 06:43 am
@mako cv,
Continue ...

[SIZE="4"]The Universe Testifies to the Existence of Allah (God) [/SIZE]

[SIZE="3"] " Lo! We (Allah) have created every thing by measure."
[The Noble Quran, 54 :49]
[/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"]"And the heaven: He (Allah) has raised it high, and He has set up the Balance."
[The Noble Quran 55:7][/SIZE]


Quote:
Every thing in this universe is well-tuned to a certain purpose , no room here for chance . Paul Davies (British astrophysicist) says : "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature?s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

Allah (God) refers to the well-tuned universe in a verse that condense heavy volumes in just few words that arise ecstasy in the human soul . Allah Almighty says:

[SIZE="3"] " Lo! We (Allah) have created every thing by measure."
[The Noble Quran, 54 :49]
[/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"]"And the heaven: He (Allah) has raised it high, and He has set up the Balance."
[The Noble Quran 55:7][/SIZE]


In the following table (quoted from Limits for the Universe by Hugh Ross, Ph.D. in Astronomy) , it shows how every thing is balanced and is calculated to an extent that the subtle difference can make life impossible and even end the universe before it begins. In this table , you will see some consonants in the universe:




31- Inclination of orbit

If too great: Temperature differences on the planet would be too extreme



32- Orbital eccentricity

If too great: Seasonal temperature differences would be too extreme


33- Axial tilt

If greater: Surface temperature differences would be too great
If less: Surface temperature differences would be too great


34- Rotation period

If longer: Diurnal temperature differences would be too great
If shorter: Atmospheric wind velocities would be too great


35- Gravitational interaction with a moon

If greater: Tidal effects on the oceans, atmosphere, and rotational period would be too severe
If less: Orbital obliquity changes would cause climatic instabilities


36- Magnetic field

If stronger: Electromagnetic storms would be too severe
If weaker: Inadequate protection from hard stellar radiation


37- Thickness of crust

If thicker: Too much oxygen would be transferred from the atmosphere to the crust
If thinner: Volcanic and tectonic activity would be too great


38- Albedo (ratio of reflected light to total amount falling on surface)

If greater: Runaway ice age would develop
If less: Runaway green house effect would develop


39- Oxygen to nitrogen ratio in atmosphere

If larger: Advanced life functions would proceed too quickly
If smaller: Advanced life functions would proceed too slowly


40- Carbon dioxide level in atmosphere

If greater: Runaway greenhouse effect would develop
If greater: Runaway greenhouse effect would develop


To be continued.
mako cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 05:13 am
@SWORD of GOD,
Cosmology and the Koran: A Response to Muslim Fundamentalists (2001)
by Richard Carrier
Muslim Fundamentalists are fond of claiming that the Koran miraculously predicted the findings of modern science, and that all of its factual scientific claims are flawless. There are two important objections to this claim that I will make, one pointing to a general problem, the other a specific example of the failure of the claim.
1. There is Nothing Miraculously New in the Koran
Much of the fundamentalist's evidence for this alleged miracle is actually moot, since it represents scientific knowledge that had been known in both the Mediterranean and Middle East for centuries before the Koran was written. Things like this have proven hard to explain to fanatics who are more practiced at pious denials than in actual historical research. For what follows, I am repeating common knowledge in the field of medieval history, and I refer doubters to the bibliography at the end of this essay.
The works of the Greeks were known in the Arab and North African world for a thousand years before Islam, and Islam began translating Greek texts into Arabic within a century of its military conquests. Greek Hellenic culture had long since spread into and affected popular beliefs, even among illiterate peoples, throughout and beyond the Roman Empire, even down the East Coast of Africa, in many cases reinforced by the introduction of the new Romano-Hellenic philosophy of Christianity. Jews and Christians were extensively Hellenized, and Islam sprung from these very same religious traditions. Even India knew about Greek astronomical works in the first century A.D., having partially translated them into royal languages. Anyone who knows the history of the conquests of Alexander the Great and his successors knows that Greeks and their culture had been firmly rooted and spread throughout the world all the way to Afghanistan, the Ganges river, especially Syria and Persia, but even to Arabia itself. Greek influence on Egypt and Carthage, and even direct colonization, was extensive and spread throughout North Africa over a millennium before the rise of Islam. Oral culture, begun from the speeches of philosophers and rhetors, the songs of poets, and the sermons of preachers and holy men, transmitted a simplified Hellenic-Zoroastrian cosmology throughout the peoples of the Western and Middle-Eastern world at the time.
Many of the first Muslims would have been very familiar with Greek language and Greco-Roman education long before they decided to translate texts. The Muslims used Greek for all their administrative documents until the beginning of the 8th century. By the time the Koran was written, all of the Arabic world had been under the domination of the Greek Byzantine Empire for centuries, and had been settled by Greeks since the invasion of Alexander the Great a thousand years before. Indeed, it would have been impossible for Arabs in the 7th century not to know of Greek ideas, since they would already have known many Greeks, they would have traded and worked and gone to school in Greek cities, and served in Greek armies and administrations, for centuries. Just as Europeans learned and read from Latin and Greek, despite speaking other languages, for over a thousand years before anyone thought to start translating books into local languages, so the Arabs used Greek as the language of the educated administrator until their devotion to the native language of their holy book, and the destruction of Greco-Roman power, drew them to transform the written tradition they had inherited. Hence, Arabs knew many Greek ideas, and had known them for many centuries before Islam arose. This is why the burden is on the Muslim to show you anything in the Koran that was not already standard knowledge or educated belief in the Mediterranean world when the Koran was written. Until they do so, and do so competently, we are fully justified in ignoring their assertions to the contrary.
Of course, it is claimed that Muhammad was uneducated, and thus the fact that he knew sophisticated ideas, or even writing itself, is miraculous. Besides the fact that this cannot be even remotely proven (the historical documents concerning Muhammad are murky at best), from what we do know the claim is implausible. He was born to a rich and powerful family who controlled the influential trade city of Mecca, which had major and regular connections with Byzantine Egypt, Syria-Palestine, and Persia, all bastions of ancient Hellenized cultures. It is inconceivable that a child of a powerful and wealthy mercantile family, even raised by relatives, would not have received an education. Moreover, Mecca was already populated with large quarters of Hellenized Jews and Christians, with whom Muhammad would have had ample oral contact. Not only is it more than possible for Muhammad to have learned writing and many other Greco-Persian ideas, it is almost certain. There really is no way to prove otherwise, for legend has all but buried the facts.
2. The Koran Gets Cosmology Predictably Wrong
I will address the one example of the claims of "scientific accuracy" in the Koran that I have examined. One Fundamentalist Muslim website (among many) declares that "the Koran mentions that the universe originated from a 'gaseous material'. (Koran 41:11)." This is a paradigm example of the type of "evidence" that is offered, and one hardly needs to point out why it is unpersuasive--the ambiguity of it is astounding. But in detail:
? The idea that the universe began as some sort of gaseous vortex was ubiquitous throughout Persian and Greek ideology. That the Koran says the same thing is thus not at all surprising. Greek philosophers guessed a lot of scientific details correctly--they anticipated atoms, other solar systems, evolution, the laws of thermodynamics, the rain cycle, you name it. That doesn't make them supernaturally prescient, nor does it do so for the Koran.
? The Koran fails to say anything about specific gasses, or that there was more than one (helium and hydrogen), or anything scientifically specific at all, like why or how the universe originated or evolved, no mention of scientific-mathematical laws or relationships or physical constants. It thus makes no scientific statement at all. It says something hopelessly vague and unoriginal for its time. Thus, any future scientific finding could be retrofitted to suit what it says. It is thus scientifically useless, and would be even if it were true.
? The universe did not begin as a gas. If current Big Bang science is correct, the universe began before any matter of any kind existed--it began as pure energy. It took several moments for any matter to form, and then it was a plasma, not a gas. Gases only came later, after the plasma cooled, and yet gasses were still not the only constituent--much of the mass-energy at even that point, as before, was comprised of electromagnetic radiation--light. The fact that the Koran fails to mention any of this or any other crucial scientific information is precisely why its claim to "scientific accuracy" is to be dismissed. It is making vague metaphysical statements, and that is not science.
? The passage in question actually does not say "gaseous material," and here we find the familiar case of the fundamentalist playing fast and loose with language, to twist things into saying precisely what they do not. The Arabic word used is dukhan, "smoke." This is claimed to be a "perfect analogy" for gas and particles in suspension, and the gasses being hot. Is it? Not really. Smoke is made of ash, predominantly carbon, and is produced from burning (oxidation), not plasma condensation. Smoke looks nothing like heated hydrogen or helium, does not share its elemental mass or other properties, and does not even possess many of the general properties of a gas. Thus, it is the wrong word. Arabic could not lack the vocabulary to simply say "hot air" or "hot gases expanding in an empty space" or anything even remotely relevant to the truth. Instead, the author chose the least accurate way of putting it, "smoke." If you can change the meaning of a word at will, and convert a word for "carbon-based ash" into "two basic gases," then you can change the meaning of any word in any book to prove any theory you want. Far from being scientific, that is the very antithesis of science.
? The very passage in question is neatly quoted out of context, disguising the fact that the whole section actually clearly and flatly contradicts known science. This point must be driven home in some detail for Muslim deniers to understand it.
So now the real problem: the Koran gets science completely wrong, and does so in a way that makes perfect sense as an idea borrowed from other pre-modern cultures of that place and date. These two facts combine to eliminate any possibility that the Koran is miraculously scientifically prescient, or anything other than the natural product of human imagination. Here is a literal translation, with commentary in parentheses, from a mainstream Muslim website:
[41:9] Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the Alam" (mankind, jinns and all that exists).
[41:10] He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four 'days' were equal in the length of time), for all those who ask (about its creation).
[41:11] Then He istaw (rose over) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: "Come both of you willingly or unwillingly." They both said: "We come, willingly."
[41:12] Then He completed seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.
The Koran repeats throughout that Allah created everything in six days (e.g. 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 50:38, 57:4), just as the Old Testament says, and here we have those six days broken down into three units of two, and placed in chronological order. Though attempts to "reinterpret" the word "day" in ways that fit scientific knowledge never work (inserting any uniform duration into the story is still incapable of fitting the facts), we will put that aside here and address what is irrefutable: the order of creation clearly given above soundly contradicts firmly-established scientific fact. Verse 41:9 states in no uncertain terms that the earth is made "in two days," and this is the first two days in the list. Verse 41:10 describes the next two days of creation, completing the first "four days equal," in which mountains and plants are made. Thus, we are seeing a clear temporal order: for mountains and plants could not be made before the earth is made, thus 41:10 follows 41:9 in time, so it is only reasonable to conclude that 41:11 and 41:12 continue the temporal progression--which makes sense, since the one heaven could not have been separated into seven heavens and adorned with stars before it was smoke).
But then we see that verse 41:11 establishes an undeniable context in which the universe exists as smoke at the same time that the earth already exists, since God "rose over towards the heaven when it was smoke" and spoke to it and to the earth, therefore no Muslim can rationally deny that this verse clearly says the earth existed at the same time as the smoke. The earth had to exist while the heaven was smoke, or else this sentence would make no sense. So now we see the original claim fall flat on its face: the Koran does not say "that the universe originated" from smoke, certainly not in any way that matches the scientific theory that the universe was once in a gaseous state, since here the "gaseous state" co-exists with a fully-formed Earth. That is scientifically impossible: the elements of which planets are comprised did not exist until the gasses condensed into stars, and the stars exploded and recondensed over several cycles, generating the heavy elements that eventually condensed into planets around new stars. Verse 41:11 thus fails to fit any scientific theory of the origins of the cosmos: the earth long post-dated the "gaseous" state of the universe that Muslim Fundamentalists want the word "smoke" to refer to.
It gets worse. Verse 41:12 describes in no uncertain terms the last two days of the six days of creation, since it says in these two days creation was "completed," yet it is only then that stars, the "lamps," adorn the sky. This completely reverses scientific reality: earth could not possibly have existed before stars adorned the sky--no planet could. We know that as a matter of firmly-established fact: for only stars can produce the heavy elements of which planets like the earth are made. Yet the Koran says, with no ambiguity and beyond any shadow of a doubt, that stars appear in heaven after the earth. Any book that says that is simply wrong, and certainly not supernaturally inspired. This alone proves that the book is a human artifact, an ancient work of literature from an age of relative ignorance. It is thus a historical and literary curiosity, not the harbinger of the One True Religion. Consequently, the claims to the contrary by Muslim Fundamentalists can be dismissed without any fear of being unreasonable or irrational. It is they who are being irrational and unreasonable if they deny the obvious.
For example, one Muslim tried the usual fundamentalist tactic of abusing and twisting language contrary to all sense and reason, telling me that the word translated as "then," thumma, in verses 41:11 and 41:12 means "and also" or "moreover" and thus does not denote temporal order, and so 41:9-12 is just a conceptual list given out of chronological order (for no particular reason, of course). But this argument is false, for thumma can in fact mean a chronological "then," and as I have shown the context makes no other interpretation logically possible. But this also entails his own refutation: for if there is no chronology here, then the claim that the universe "originated" as dukhan is not in the Koran at all. By denying the chronological nature of this passage, he denies the very claim he wants to make. It thus does not say anything about the whole universe originating as smoke. If there is no claim, there is no miraculous prediction of scientific fact. But as we have seen, not only is there no such prediction, the passage cannot be understood in any other way than as a plain contradiction of the facts.
We also see how the Koran's failure makes perfect sense in its milieu: the author was merely repeating the false order of creation given in the book of Genesis--earth and mountains and plants first, then the stars. The only variation is in the precise timing: Genesis has stars made on the fourth day, the Koran has it on the fifth and sixth days, etc., but otherwise the concepts are clearly related. Moreover, verse 41:12 repeats a popular superstition found throughout the Greco-Persian world of the day: the myth of the seven heavens. This was an inherent component of almost every pagan religion, and also of Judaism and Christianity, and a clear marker of cultural borrowing, with no practical scientific meaning. Thus, we clearly see the Koran in error here, and we can easily account for this error in natural, human terms. There is nothing more to be said. Indeed, the "seven heavens" motif is a false count of the solar bodies, and even implies geocentrism, since "the seven heavens" are traditionally delineated by the seven "planets," i.e. the sun, moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. No one yet knew of Uranus, Neptune, or Pluto, much less the asteroid belt. Nor did anyone yet know that the moon is the only body that actually orbits the earth, and that the sun doesn't orbit at all, and thus neither should be classified with the other planets.
Whether the Koran, or the Bible, or any other religious text contains noble ideas is not the point here. Noble ideas stand on their own: they do not need "holy" texts to support them, they do not need miracles, or religious systems or supernatural entities, in order to possess their nobility. Wisdom is wisdom, from wherever it comes, and for all practical utility we should seek it where it is most carefully and correctly and usefully described and explained. I do not find this to be the case in any religious text. Philosophy has been far more successful at this, with a better grasp of the concept of explanation, definition, and logical analysis and argument. Thus, there is nothing religious texts have to offer that is not better said in philosophical texts. If, then, religious texts like the Koran are all mere human and ancient works of mortal and fallible piety, we should not be obsessed with them, or revere them as anything other than they are: the cultural dogmas of ancient peoples. Instead, we should seek wisdom in reason and logical argument and scientific investigation. Thus, I reject the Koran only because it is a human, fallible, primitive work of a bygone age, ineloquent and inappropriate for our times. It may have other salvageable virtues, in its moral teachings or literary quality or historical interest, but they do not interest me. I find my moral wisdom in better places, and have enough literature and history to occupy and entertain me. So, to all Muslim Fundamentalists out there, do not approach me with assertions of my irrationality. Examine yours instead.
________________________________________
Bibliography:
R. Bell, The Origin of Islam in its Christian Environment, 1926.
M. Cook, Muhammad, 1983.
P.M. Holt, et al., The Cambridge History of Islam, vol. 1, 1970.
A. Hourani, A History of the Arab Peoples, 1991.
Hugh Kennedy, "Islam," Late Antiquity, 1999, pp. 219-37.
I. Lapidus, A History of Islamic Society, 1988.
Warwick Ball, Rome in the East, 2000.
James Evans, The History and Practice of Ancient Astronomy, 1998.
Robin Lane Fox, Pagans and Christians, 1987.
Robert Grant, Miracle and Natural Law in Graeco-Roman and Early Christian Thought, 1952.
Peregrine Horden & Nicholas Purcell, The Corrupting Sea: A Study of Mediterranean History, 2000.
Richard Horsley, Paul and Empire: Religion and Power in Roman Imperial Society, 1997.
Ramsay MacMullen, Christianity & Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries, 1997.
Margaret Williams, The Jews Among the Greeks and Romans, 1998.
Alan Cromer, Uncommon Sense: The Heretical Nature of Science, 1993.
Copyright 2001. Copying is freely permitted, provided credit is given to the author. No material herein may be sold for profit.

See, anyone can cut and paste...I can probably find just as much against the quran as you can for it...LOL :patriot:
SWORD of GOD
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 05:54 am
@mako cv,
Continue ...

[SIZE="4"]The Universe Testifies to the Existence of Allah (God) [/SIZE]

[SIZE="3"] " Lo! We (Allah) have created every thing by measure."
[The Noble Quran, 54 :49]
[/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"]"And the heaven: He (Allah) has raised it high, and He has set up the Balance."
[The Noble Quran 55:7][/SIZE]


Quote:
Every thing in this universe is well-tuned to a certain purpose , no room here for chance . Paul Davies (British astrophysicist) says : "There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature?s numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming".

Allah (God) refers to the well-tuned universe in a verse that condense heavy volumes in just few words that arise ecstasy in the human soul . Allah Almighty says:

[SIZE="3"] " Lo! We (Allah) have created every thing by measure."
[The Noble Quran, 54 :49]
[/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"]"And the heaven: He (Allah) has raised it high, and He has set up the Balance."
[The Noble Quran 55:7][/SIZE]


In the following table (quoted from Limits for the Universe by Hugh Ross, Ph.D. in Astronomy) , it shows how every thing is balanced and is calculated to an extent that the subtle difference can make life impossible and even end the universe before it begins. In this table , you will see some consonants in the universe:




41- Water vapor level in atmosphere

If greater: Runaway greenhouse effect would develop
If less: Rainfall would be too meager for advanced life on the land


42- Ozone level in atmosphere

If greater: Surface temperatures would be too low
If less: Surface temperatures would be too high; there would be too much UV radiation at the surface


43- Atmospheric electric discharge rate

If greater: Too much fire destruction would occur
If less: Too little nitrogen would be fixed in the atmosphere


44- Oxygen quantity in atmosphere

If greater: Plants and hydrocarbons would burn up too easily
If less: Advanced animals would have too little to breathe


45- Oceans to continents ratio

If greater: Diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
If less: Diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited


46- Soil materializations

If too nutrient poor: Diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited
If too nutrient rich: Diversity and complexity of life-forms would be limited


47- Seismic activity

If greater: Too many life-forms would be destroyed
If less: Nutrients on ocean floors (from river runoff) would not be recycled to the continents through tectonic uplift




[SIZE="3"] " Lo! We (Allah) have created every thing by measure."
[The Noble Quran, 54 :49]
[/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"]"And the heaven: He (Allah) has raised it high, and He has set up the Balance."
[The Noble Quran 55:7][/SIZE]
mako cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 05:58 am
@SWORD of GOD,
As my previous post points out...the quran is too vague...I have Christians making the same vague claims for the bible
SWORD of GOD
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:08 am
@mako cv,
[SIZE="4"]Quranic Scientific Miracles Prove the Existence of Allah (God)[/SIZE]


[CENTER][SIZE="5"]Shaking of Soil[/SIZE][/CENTER]

[SIZE="3"]"And among His (Allah's) Signs (in this), that you see the earth barren; but when We (Allah) send down water (rain) to it, it is shaken (stirred to life) and growth (of vegetations). Verily, He Who gives it life, surely, is Able to give life to the dead (on the Day of Resurrection). Indeed He is Able to do all things." [The Noble Quran 41:39][/SIZE]

In the first scientific conference about the scientific miracles in Quran and Sunna that was held in Islamabad in Pakistan, a scholar of plant said that there is a Quran verse which tells us about a scientific fact discovered in 1827. In 1827 a British scientist by name of Brown has discovered that when the rain reaches the soil it creates shaking & trembling of molecules of soil. The soil contains various molecules that have different types of tins that packed on each other. When rains fall, these different types of this create different types of electrical currents due to the fact that tin may be of different types of minerals. These tins get ionized (the ion is a molecule among a group of molecules which have an electrical current. If the electrical current decreases in some of them they turn into a positive ion & if it increases in some of them they turn into a negative ion) When it rains, these ionic molecules get shaked and as water invades them from different directions (shaking and trembling of these packed ionic molecules is useful because it distances the packed tins & creates gaps where water can enter in-between the tins) they absorb water and their sizes increase. When they become satiated by water they turn to be mineral stores of water inside the soil. Plants get the supply of water for two or three months from these stores. Otherwise if these stores were not formed water will infiltrate to the depth of the soil and plant would die within a week.
Therefore, the British scientist found that when rains fall on soil the different packed mineral molecules in the soil get shaked and by their different electrical current they get ionized.

What Brown, the British scientist has found has been called by his name. Ironically it has been called ?Brown?s Shaking?, whereas it has been mentioned in Quran before fourteen centuries. It has been called by that name because Man is not just and he does not read and inquire. If man wants to be just he should read what Quran said before fourteen century that
?And (further) thou seest, the earth barren and lifeless. But when We pouer down Rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs)? [The Noble Quran 22:5].[/COLOR] Therefore Quran preceded the modern science in revealing the shaking of soil caused by rain, this is a great evident that Dawn is a divine revelation. It was revealed to the prophet Mohammed ?PBUH? to give the most pusper guidance to human life as well as him to offer many secrets of the cosmos which he has to struggle to discover of he does not read and examine the content of Quran.

Source ?Knowledge is the path for Faith? By: Shaikh Abdel Majeed Elzindani.
mako cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:16 am
@SWORD of GOD,
still way too vague...just so much mythology:patriot:
SWORD of GOD
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:20 am
@mako cv,
[SIZE="4"]The Satellites Witness the Truth of the Messenger, MUHAMMAD (peace be upon him)[/SIZE]


For the truth seekers, Watch the amazing evidence yourself here
YouTube - Google Witnesses Muhammad is prophet of God???? ???? ????


After 14 centuries from the event of the Messenger, Muhammad, (peace be upon him) mosque building order in Sana'a, Yemen, Satellites confirm his prophet-hood. You can go to Google Earth and Verify for yourself.
mako cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:29 am
@SWORD of GOD,
Still waiting for specific evidence for the validity of your mythology:patriot:
SWORD of GOD
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:53 am
@mako cv,
[SIZE="3"][25] "And of them (disbelievers) there are some who listen to you; but We (Allah) have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; and even if they see every one of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old." "
[The Noble Quran 6:25]
[/SIZE]



[SIZE="3"][146] "I (Allah) shall turn away from My Ayat (verses of the Quran) those who behave arrogantly on the earth, without a right, and (even) if they see all the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), they will not believe in them. And if they see the way of righteousness (monotheism, piety, and good deeds), they will not adopt it as the Way, but if they see the way of error (polytheism, crimes and evil deeds), they will adopt that way, that is because they have rejected Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and were heedless (to learn a lesson) from them."
[The Noble Quran 7:146]
[/SIZE]



[SIZE="2"][SIZE="3"]"[43] Have you (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) seen him who has taken as his ilah (god) his own desire? Would you then be a Wak?l (a disposer of his affairs or a watcher) over him?
[44] Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are only like cattle- nay, they are even farther astray from the Path. (i.e. even worst than cattle)."
[The Noble Quran 24: 43-44][/SIZE]
[/SIZE]


[SIZE="3"][23] "Had Allah known of any good in them (the arrogant disbelievers), He would indeed have made them listen; and even if He had made them listen, they would but have turned away with aversion (to the truth)."
[The Noble Quran 8: 23]
[/SIZE]
mako cv
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 06:56 am
@SWORD of GOD,
Not swayed by verses from a book of mythology...especially a mythology that borrowed from much older religions...still waiting for evidence your religion, your god and your mythology has even a small grain of truth to it...:patriot:
Fatal Freedoms
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 07:59 am
@mako cv,
He is ignoring us, he's still in fanatical preach mode.
Numpty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2009 08:21 am
@Fatal Freedoms,
Fatal_Freedoms;63420 wrote:
He is ignoring us, he's still in fanatical preach mode.


Full on head to the floor, arse to allah preach mode. For a qualified engineer who preaches tolerance and truth, she seems unable to show very much of either.
0 Replies
 
YuhannaEl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 03:39 am
@SWORD of GOD,
The Messiah Jesus Is Glorified In The Qur'an More Than Any Other Prophet. He Is Mentioned In 15 Chapters. One Of The More Common Titles For The Messiah Jesus Is '' Son Of Mary ''. He Is Mentioned 15 Times As Isa Ibn Maryam ( Jesus , Son Of Mary ) ; 2 ; 87 , 2 ; 253 , 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 157 , 4 ; 171 , 5 ; 49 , 5 ; 81 , 5 ; 113 , 5 ; 115 , 5 ; 117 , 5 ; 119 , 19 ; 34 , 33 ; 7 , 57 ; 27 , 61 ; 6 ,

Fourteen times as the Son of Mary , Ibn Maryam ) alone or with some other title; 5 ; 19 ( twice ), 49 ; 78 , 113 , 115 , 117 , 119 , 9 ; 31 , 19 ; 34 , 23 ; 50 , 43 ; 57 , 57 ; 27 , 61 ; 6 .

Once as the sign of the hour -- Alamus Saa'ati ) ; 43 ; 61

Eleven times as Rasuwl , 2 ; 87 , 3 ; 49 , 4 ; 157 , 5 ; 78 , 57 ; 27 , 2 ; 253 , 3 ; 52 - 53 , 4 ; 171 , 5 ; 114 , 61 ; 6 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned on the Qur'an nine times named in conjuction with other Prophets ; 2; 136 , 3 ; 84 , 4 ; 163 , 5 ; 81 , 33 ; 7 , 42 ; 13 , 57 ; 26 - 27 , 6 ; 85 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as Isa in the Qur'an 10 times; 2 ; 136 , 3 ; 51 , 3 ; 54 , 3 ; 59 , 3 ; 84 , 4 ; 163 , 6 ; 85 , 42 ; 13 , 19 ; 34 , 43 ; 63 ,

The Messiah Jesus occurs in connection with Ar Ruhu -- as often as five times in the Qur'an. 2 ; 87 , 2 ; 253 , 5 ; 110 , 4 ; 171 , 21 ; 91 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as a witness Shahidan - in the Qur'an twice -- 4 ; 159 , 5 ; 120 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as blessed Mubaarakan --- in the Qur'an once ; 19 ; 31 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as illustrious Wajihan --- in the Qur'an once 3 ; 45

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as - Ayat - -- in the Qur'an four times; 3 ; 48 , 19 ; 21 , 21 ; 91 , 23 ; 50 ..

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as - mercy - Rahmah -- in the Qur'an once ; 19 ; 21 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as - a statement of the truth - Qawlal -- Haqqi ) ; 19 ; 34 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as of those near ( to Allah ) , Min Al Muqarrabiyna ) once in the Qur'an; 3 ; 45 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as of the righteous - Min As Salihiyna ) once in the Qur'an; 3 ; 45 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as an example -- Mathal ) in the Qur'an twice ; 43 ; 57 , 43 ; 59 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as a simulator -- Mathalan -- in the Qur'an once 3 ; 59 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as Al Masih -- the Messiah ) 11 times in the once ; 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 157 , 4 ; 171 , 4 ; 172 , 5 ; 19 ( twice ) 5 ; 75 ( twice ) 5 ; 78 , 9 ; 30 , 9 ; 31 .

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as slave -- Abd --- three times in the Qur'an . 4 ; 172 , 19 ; 30 , 43 ; 59 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned once as a prophet -- Nabian ); 19 ; 30

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as a word --- Kalima -- in the Qur'an twice ; 3 ; 45 , 4 ; 171 ,

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as be and he became --- Kuwn Fayakuwn ) in the Qur'an once 3 ; 59

The Messiah Jesus is mentioned as her son --- Ibnaha in the Qur'an once . 21 ; 91 . The Prophet Muhammad Is Mentioned Four Times 48 ; 29 ; 3 ; 144 ; 33 ; 40 ; 47 ; 2


Jesus Has Many Titles In The Koran . Now Stating That Muhammad Is '' The Rasuwl Allah '' , And You So-called Muslims Base Your Belief Around His Teaching , Wouldn't It Be Out Of Mere Respect That You Bse Your Book On Jesus Christ Throughout Your Text ? Moses Is Spoken Of In The Koran ; Gabriel ( Koran 2 ; 97 - 98 ) , David ( Koran 6 ; 84 , 21 ; 78 - 80 ) , Jacob ( Koran 2 ; 132 - 133 ) , And Many Other Prophets ; But Why Would You Dedicate The Whole 19th Chapter To Jesus ' Mother ( The Chapter Of Mary ) , And A Whole Chapter To The Birth Of Jesus ( The 4th Chapter Of The Women ) ? And I Can Go On . While On The Other Hand , Basically , Only One Chapter Is Dedicated To Muhammad ( Chapter 47 Of Muhammad ) . NoWhere In The Koran Is Muhammad Called A Savior Or Messiah. In Fact, Muslims Compare Moses And Muhammad And Not Muhammad And Jesus Which Makes Jesus On A Higher Level.

What I Mean By This Is , If You Make A Comparison Of How The Koran Talks About Moses And Muhammad You Will See How Jesus Is Praised More Than Muhammad Himself. The Following Chart Will Compare The Likeness Of These Men And Show You How Jesus Is Exalted Above Moses And Muhammad . According To Them ;

Muhammad --- Was only A Man / Born Of An Earthly Father And Mother / He Married / He Did Not Die For Everyone's Sins / Has A Spirit Like A Norman Person / He Got His Calling At The Age Of 40 / He Had Children / Was A Prophet / Received Book Himself Koran / Died A Natural Death / Body Was Put In The Ground ....

Moses --- Was only A Man / Born Of An Earthly Father And Mother / He Married / He Did Not Die For Everyone's Sins / Has A Spirit Like A Norman Person / He Got His Calling At The Age Of 40 /He Had Children / Was A Prophet / Received Book Himself , Torah / Died A Natural Death / Body Was Put In The Ground ....

Jesus ---- Is A God / No Earthly Father Mentioned / Did Not Marry / Died For Everyone's Sins / His Spirit Came Down Directly From God / Started His Mission At Birth / He Had No Children / Was A Messiah / Did Not Receive Book Himself / Did Not Die A Natural Death / Was Taken Up By Allah .

When You Put All Of These Comparisons Together , They Make Jesus Something Divine; And For Further Proof, In Your Own Koran 2 ; 253 ,
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