The New Crusades

Direct proof that a research facility of that size, capability and diversity helped everyone near it?

"The geographical diversity of the scholars suggests that the Library was in fact a major center for research and learning. In 2004, a Polish-Egyptian team found what they believe to be a part of the Library while excavating in the Bruchion region. The archaeologists unearthed thirteen "lecture halls", each with a central podium. Zahi Hawass, the president of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, said that all together, the rooms uncovered so far could have seated 5000 students; the picture thus presented is most certainly of a fairly massive research institution, especially for that time."

Simply by it's location, it was the crux of scientific knowledge and exchange for almost the entire ancient world. Any civilization near the thing benefited greatly from the exchange of knowledge that happened in there.

I beg to differ.

Antikythera mechanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You underestimate what we lost.

No, direct proof of how it could help them when it no longer existed.

I realize that scientific advancements were large in Roman and pre-Roman times, but as you said, they were lost.

If, for example, there were a document on building a better bow or forging a better sword, that would immediately advance them and they would hold onto that advancement. Better navigational charts, starcharts, maps, etc. all would be examples of how it helped them after its destruction. Civilizations have a tendency to hold onto the basics that make them work.

Where do I sign up for the Crusades????

Where else? TEXAS.

That is not logical. You yourself gave the example of scientific advancement in ancient times. In the blink of an eye, all that was lost. Almost nothing was left. When the library was destroyed, only a fraction of that knowledge at best could have existed in the minds of the scholars who studied in the library (if any were left alive.) who were part of an oppressed culture, not the culture of the Muslim invaders. It was not the same culture, so you can't expect the Muslims any more than the English to have benefited from the Library.

The entire area fell apart. Like I said, around that time, things got bad.

You're mixing up the worlds culture and religion. Regardless of when or why a religious empire was founded, the advancements granted by the Library over hundreds of years got into their hands. Those people lived in the same geographical region. Focus on the physical population, not borders or religion.

The conquests, crusades and invasions really put a damper on that whole area. Things started going backwards. Science and education took a back seat to religion. Fast forward to today and well... take a look.

The Library didn't push them farther, but it certainly gave 'em a hair of a head start. The problem was they never continued on. Everyone else left 'em behind.

You're mixing up the worlds culture and religion. Regardless of when or why a religious empire was founded, the advancements granted by the Library over hundreds of years got into their hands. Those people lived in the same geographical region. Focus on the physical population, not borders or religion

Probably one of the most conservative states in the country.

Whenever I think of Michigan, I imagine dirty snow, rusted, metal hulls piled a mile high, and trickling rivers, thick with purple and blue, chemical sledge. Nice.

Okay, example, focusing on actual population. Here is my interpretive emoticon play (tragicomedy). This is Bob: He's your average Coptic citizen of Alexandria; a wife, two kids, and he's just lucky enough to be one of 500 people with access to the full library.

This is Ahmed (close enough): :mrt:

and boy does he have an offer for Bob.

He has this cool new religion whose main patrons have just conquered Alexandria, and he thinks that it's the shiz and he hopes Bob will think so too. But since he's tolerant and all, Bob can refuse for the small price of the jizya tax and some minor degradation. Otherwise, he's going to be killed, but you can hardly blame Ahmed.

Of the 300 surviving people who have full access to the Library, a paltry 20 have converted, and are keeping mum about the few texts they've read (They're not exactly Muhammed-approved, you see), 200 are stubborn bastards who are also keeping quiet, so as not to increase the general crappiness of life or bring it all to an end, anyway, and the remaining 80 have been killed.

Bob joins the middle group, for the sake of the story, and ends up like this:

:whipping:

Starting off...

The archaeologists unearthed thirteen "lecture halls", each with a central podium. Zahi Hawass, the president of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities, said that all together, the rooms uncovered so far could have seated 5000 students

Source: Library of Alexandria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How exactly did you come up with this number of 500 people?

I think you miss exactly what the Library is and what it did. It was the central hub of knowledge and learning of the ancient world. It took on the roles of a library, research center and university.

It did this for almost 1,000 years. Long before the Muslim conquests.

This is from memory, but I recall reading that a few select scholars were allowed access to the largest part of the library, there was a smaller public wing, apparently. The library existed for quite a long time, in Alexandria's prime it could have attracted 5000 scholars, by the time of the Muslim conquest, I doubt it.

Once again, bringing in the religion.... AND throwing us several hundred years into the future.

Stop focusing so much on a religious conquest, especially one done by an empire not formed until around 630AD. Alexandria was conquered by the Rashidun, and they didn't exist until the early 600's.

The Library shot that area forward hundreds of years before the Muslim conquest.

The Library shot that area forward hundreds of years before the Muslim conquest

We've already thrown out the tiny number, so let's move on

There is more skepticism in the story of the Muslim destruction of the Library than there is in the Christian one. Those Christians had a thing for destroying anything that wasn't aligned with God. People, places, things, ideas.... nix 'em all.

You've missed the entire point completely. The Library's effects were seen and felt for hundreds of years in every part of the ancient world. This includes the guys that would become the Rashidun, and ultimately the Arab Empire.

Excuse me, I was under the impression that we were talking about Muslim culture in relation to the library.

Maybe it was more advanced, but hundreds of years is sort of speculative, which is besides the point. The Library was merely a gathering of most of the knowledge in the general Mediterranean area, and I'll bet most of the books were completely unknown to even those who did have access to the library. There were hundreds of thousands.

When was this?

Lovely, your need to criticize Christianity and give a free pass to Muslims at every opportunity is wonderful, but that would also put the date of destruction quite a ways before the Muslim conquest. Please tell me exactly how the aura of the knowledge contained within managed to survive its destruction.

Okay but how did they survive post mortem, did the library just seep into the pores of the city? And specific examples, if you will.

Michigan is sparsely populated with detroit being nearly half of the states total population, and being in the mid-west there is a lot of farmland and there is a lot of shipping and automobile industry. The upper peninsula is mostly wilderness and small rural towns, where the yuppers (as they're known) have canadian accents, it is nearly impossible to find a mcDonalds or a StarBucks in the U.P. of Michigan. It's a hilly state overall. The economy has been in the gutter lately one of the worst economies in the country.

Had a prof who earned his PhD at Wisconsin back in the '60s. He was one nutty old liberal dipstick. He told us at least once every hour or so that he earned his PhD at Wisconsin back in the '60s. By the time the course ended, I was numb from hearing it. What a frig'n idiot. What's with Wisconsin? A lot of folks from there act as though it's God's gift to America. I think of dairy cows and a boring, agricultural landscape when I imagine the place.

Excuse me to interupt your discussion here. But I just wonder what the Library of Alexandria had to do with the scientific advancement of Muslims during your midevil era !!?

This library has been destroyed and vanished way before the rise of Islam.

If you walked into Alexandria, any written material you had with you was copied and stored in the library. Didn't matter who you were or where you came from. Didn't matter the language.

The Library was a research institute. It did more than harbor information. It spread it and taught it. Saying the Library is merely a gathering of knowledge is like saying Oxford University is just a collection of books or the Smithsonian is a collection of trinkets.

The Library of Congress has over thirty million cataloged books... does the fact that it contains so many texts and so few have seen them all diminish it's worth?

You also seem to believe that the Library was an exclusive club thing. Sorry, it was as much an institute of learning as it was a library. It was pretty public, as scholars and students would come and go throughout the days.

How many people have access to the Library of Congress?

Specific examples. I'd love to, but exactly what was contained in the Library is gone, so there is no way to tell. However the evidence of what it was, what it did and what it contributed do lay heavily on my side of things.


Now, I'd like you to answer some questions.

Explain the number 500 in your argument. Why so few people? Where did you get this information and yes... supply evidence.

Provide evidence that the Library was destroyed by the Muslims, and not the Christians. Solid, hard-to-refute stuff would be nice... (I can show lots of evidence to the contrary) I don't give Islam a free pass, and I don't give Christianity one either. Own the hell up.