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The Lost Tomb of Jesus - is it a religious attack?

 
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2007 09:15 pm
@z0z0,
Was the scientist being executed a Christian?
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2007 09:23 pm
@z0z0,
Scientists of the Christian Faith: A Presentation of the Pioneers, Practitioners and Supporters of Modern Science

Appendix 1: Christian Pioneers of Modern Science



Daniel Graves, author of Scientists of Faith and Doctors Who Followed Christ, writes: "Many of the sciences derive directly from the work of a Christian or were greatly influenced at their inception by a Christian. … It may seem an outrageous claim that Christians were seminal to much of what dominates modern scientific thinking, but it is true. There is hardly a science or scientific idea which cannot trace its inception as a viable theory to some Christian."



A careful study of history reveals that technology and modern science was, in fact, pioneered by Christians. The case is made by Dr. Ian Hutchison and Dr. Loren Eiseley (below) and at the essays found at the subsequent links.



Ian H.Hutchinson, Head of Department of Nuclear Energy. Plasma Science and Fusion Center and Department of Nuclear Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, USA. ASA Conference, 4 August 2002. "Science: Christian and Natural," Science: Christian and Natural.

Going further, though, I believe there is a constructive case to be made for the phrase Christian Science.

First, as represented by the theme of this conference "Christian Pioneers", we should recognize that modern science is built upon the foundational work of people who more than anything else were Christians. Christians were the pioneers of the revolution of thought that brought about our modern understanding of the world. MIT, my home institution, the high-temple of science and technology in the United States, has a pseudo-Greek temple architecture about its main buildings. The fluted columns are topped not with baccanalian freizes, but with the names of the historical heroes of science (not to mention William Barton Rogers, the founder). A rough assessment was carried out by a few of us some years ago of the fraction of the people listed there who were Christians. The estimate we arrived at was about 60%.

Any list of the giants of physical science would include Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Boyle, Pascal, Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, all of whom, despite denominational and doctrinal differences among them, and opposition that some experienced from church authorities, were deeply committed to Jesus Christ.

Second, I observed over the years in my interactions with Christians in academia, that far from scientists being weakly represented in the ranks of the faithful, as one would expect if science and faith are incompatible, they are strongly overrepresented. The sociological evidence has been studied systematically for example by Robert Wuthnow [Robert Wuthnow, The Struggle for America's Soul, Eerdmanns, Grand Rapids, (1989), p146.], who established that while academics undoubtedly tend to be believers in lower proportion than the US population as a whole, among academics, scientists were proportionally more likely to be Christians that those in the non-science disciplines. The common misconception that scientists were or are inevitably sundered from the Christian faith by their science is simply false.



Third, the question arises, why did modern science grow up almost entirely in the West, where Christian thinking held sway? There were civilizations of comparable stability, prosperity, and in many cases technology, in China, Japan, and India. Why did they not develop science? It is acknowledged that arabic countries around the end of the first millenium were more advanced in mathematics, and their libraries kept safe eventually for Christendom much of the Greek wisdom of the ancients. Why did not their learning blossom into the science we now know? More particularly, if Andrew White's portrait of history, that the church dogmatically opposed all the "dangerous innovations" of science, and thereby stunted scientific development for hundreds of years, why didn't science rapidly evolve in these other cultures?



A case that has been made cogently by Stanley Jaki [Stanley L. Jaki, The road of science and the ways to God, University of Chicago Press, Chicago, (1978).], amongst others, is that far from being an atmosphere stifling to science, the Christian world view of the West was the fertile cultural and philosophical soil in which science grew and flourished. He argues that it was precisely the theology of Christianity which created that fertile intellectual environment. The teaching that the world is the free but contingent creation of a rational Creator, worthy of study on its own merits because it is "good", and the belief that because our rationality is in the image of the creator, we are capable of understanding the creation: these are theological encouragements to the work of empirical science. Intermingled with the desire to benefit humankind for Christian charity's sake, and enabled by the printing press to record and communicate results for posterity, the work of science became a force that gathered momentum despite any of the strictures of a threatened religious hierarchy.

So I suggest that there is a deeper reason why scientists are puzzled about how one might pursue a Christian Science distinguished from what has been the approach developed over the past half millenium. It is that modern science is already in a very serious sense Christian. It germinated in and was nurtured by the Christian philosophy of creation, it was developed and established through the work of largely Christian pioneers, and it continues to draw Christians to its endeavours today.

Dr. Loren Eiseley (1907-1977), a Professor of anthropology, a science history writer and evolutionist, concluded that the birth of modern science was mainly due to the creationist convictions of its founders. "It is the CHRISTIAN world which finally gave birth in a clear articulated fashion to the experimental method of science itself ... It began its discoveries and made use of its method in the faith, not the knowledge, that it was dealing with a rational universe controlled by a Creator who did not act upon whim nor inference with the forces He had set in operation. The experimental method succeeded beyond man's wildest dreams but the faith that brought it into being owes something to the Christian conception of the nature of God. It is surely one of the curious paradoxes of history that science, which professionally has little to do with faith, owes its origins to an act of faith that the universe can be rationally interpreted, and that science today is sustained by that assumption." [Loren Eiseley, Darwin's Centenary: Evolution and the Men who Discovered it, Doubleday: New York, 1961 p:62]

Scientists of the Christian Faith: A Presentation of the Pioneers, Practitioners and Supporters of Modern Science
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2007 09:40 pm
@z0z0,
wonderful, so there were scientists they didn't kill, there were people Charles Manson didn't kill as well, that's doesn't atone him for what he DID do (not that I would equate Manson with Christians, I was only drawing a parallel)
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2007 09:42 pm
@z0z0,
A long read but pretty good.
Scientists Speak Up on Mix of God and Science - New York Times
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2007 09:43 pm
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;13389 wrote:
wonderful, so there were scientists they didn't kill, there were people Charles Manson didn't kill as well, that's doesn't atone him for what he DID do (not that I would equate Manson with Christians, I was only drawing a parallel)
What scientists are you talking about?
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2007 09:55 pm
@z0z0,
I'm sorry, he was only imprisoned within his home for the rest of his life. He was forced however to recant what he said about the center of the Universe, one can only imagine what would have happened had he not

Galileo Galilei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2007 09:59 pm
@z0z0,
and here's the office of Inquisition, where blasphemers were punished by the "church police" during the dark ages

Criticism of the Catholic Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
0 Replies
 
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2007 10:17 pm
@z0z0,
Your example says:
Quote:
During periods of the Medieval era, the Church responded to claims of heresy through the Office of the Inquisition. During this time in history, before the separation of Church and State, an accusation of heresy could be construed as treason against lawful civil rule, and therefore punishable by death. Some were condemned by false accusation so that their lands, titles and goods would be forfeited to local rulers. In many cases, the Inquisition saved lives by providing a trial rather than summary execution.

Said could be construed not was contrued. And what was that about the inquisition saving lives?
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Apr, 2007 10:31 pm
@z0z0,
the trial saved some lives but others WERE killed, please remove your rose colored glasses and read the entire history, not only the half sentence which makes you feel warm and nice

and not to bleed over from our conversation in another thread, this is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about when I said the church had a large control of the community during the dark ages
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 10:32 am
@z0z0,
"oops, number #4 was slavery not science (although Christianity has done more to under mind science then virtually anything else on the planet)... anyways"

Yes, I mean, just look at how God refused to lead the Hebrews out of slavery.

There are many time-specific Bible verses which were necessary at the time but can now be disregarded, for example, we now have technology to make sure pork and shellfish, restricted in Biblical times, are safe.
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 10:36 am
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;13400 wrote:
the trial saved some lives but others WERE killed, please remove your rose colored glasses and read the entire history, not only the half sentence which makes you feel warm and nice

and not to bleed over from our conversation in another thread, this is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about when I said the church had a large control of the community during the dark ages


It also said many scholars believe the Church's role was blown up. Interestingly, many scholars also separate the Middle Ages and Early Rennaissance from the Dark Ages.
0 Replies
 
markx15
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 10:40 am
@z0z0,
The CC intalled the counter-reform, there are many theologists that tried to explain faith to reason and vice-versa, Tomas de Aquino for example.
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 10:40 am
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;13478 wrote:
"oops, number #4 was slavery not science (although Christianity has done more to under mind science then virtually anything else on the planet)... anyways"

Yes, I mean, just look at how God refused to lead the Hebrews out of slavery.

There are many time-specific Bible verses which were necessary at the time but can now be disregarded, for example, we now have technology to make sure pork and shellfish, restricted in Biblical times, are safe.


God didn't make a stance against slavery in Exodus, he just wanted the Jews freed. In fact he gives the Jews laws for taking slaves of their own

And the eating of Pork was adjusted during the new covenant, it was not "cast aside" because of new technology. In fact Jesus himself has some very strong words for those who would put away God's laws in favor of man's reason, regardless of the logic behind it...

This exactly is my criticism, you take only what suits you from your own book, and ignore what you disagree with but you still say you are a follower of Christianity, even though you probably only agree with 70% of it. While Church Christianity is a wonderful faith should you choose to believe in it, the modern church dines "buffet style" from the bible, a practice the Pharisees also partook of with the Torah. Jesus was firmly agianst this...
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 10:44 am
@z0z0,
'Buffet style', eh? Sheesh, when you guys think you got something good, you really run with it, don't you? I said that pork was more unsafe then, probably the reason for the adjustment. Tell me again how the Church dines buffet style, you din't seem to provide an example.

It only makes sense that some of what's in the Bible can be adjusted with time.
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 10:49 am
@z0z0,
I wouldn't argue that it makes sense, but the plain fact is the Bible is agianst changing with the times. Infact that's in stark contrast with the "timeless perfection of god" concept.

Buffet Style means that modern christian theology is selective of what it chooses out of the Bible. Modern churches allow women to speak in chuch, don't force them to cover their heads, they don't stone rebellious children, or homosexuals, and they would never think it was okay to keep a slave. They even allow divorce for reasons other then fornication (which is in direct conflict with the sermon on the mount). Yet the new testament has very plain stances on these.
0 Replies
 
Reagaknight
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 10:52 am
@z0z0,
The implications of the retaining of such practices would surely be worse than the Church can afford. The Bible's stances on changing with the times are not so specific, and the only way the Church can survive is by progressing witht the world around it for better or worse.
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 12:25 pm
@Reagaknight,
Reagaknight;13492 wrote:
The Bible's stances on changing with the times are not so specific.


Matthew 5:18-20

18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


1 Corinthians 11

1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.

seems pretty specific to me
Drnaline
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 04:06 pm
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;13392 wrote:
I'm sorry, he was only imprisoned within his home for the rest of his life. He was forced however to recant what he said about the center of the Universe, one can only imagine what would have happened had he not

Galileo Galilei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So you were only talking about one scientist? You made is sound like we had killed hundreds or thousands
Quote:
the trial saved some lives but others WERE killed, please remove your rose colored glasses and read the entire history, not only the half sentence which makes you feel warm and nice
I did read the whole thing. Your glass's were a little rosy when you claimed: "When I think of groups of people who have executed scientists for advancing new information only one group comes to mind..."?
0 Replies
 
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 04:36 pm
@z0z0,
during that time frame in history you could be put to death legally for Heresy. That can range from social science to astronomy and include adultery or even just saying you weren't a christian. All these were punishable by death. You don't need genocide on a WWII holocaust level for something to be an injustice.
0 Replies
 
Pinochet73
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Apr, 2007 07:47 pm
@z0z0,
"I am a Christian - well Roman Catholic - and even I am willing to admit that for over 1,000 years the Church has been one of the most horrible institutions on this planet."

You either don't know a thing about European history or have no apprecation for Western Civilization. The Catholic Church kept Europe ALIVE from the fall of Rome in the late 400s (AD 476, to be more precise), until the end of the Viking invasions in the late 900s. Without the Catholic Church, European Man would have succumbed to either Islam, or any number of barbarian religions and cultures.
0 Replies
 
 

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