Re: Philosophy of Truth ?
IDEAL Singh wrote:Does Truth Mattter?
That depends. Do you want a truthful answer?
truth
Ah, Ideal, isn't that another meaning altogether? To tell the truth may not be exactly the same as to be truthful. The first deals with the accuracy of one's statement and the other deals with the sincerity, honesty or trustworthiness of the speaker.
Kara, I think that's all part of our truth; our genetics and our environment have influenced each of us in unique ways. Each of us end up with our own truths. Universal truth? I think that would be the most complex question to answer.
Quote:Kara, unfortunately our system of education didn't teach you--or me--that a long time ago.
I am not sure what you mean. I studied philosophy at university, and these issues were important to me. It is still important to me.
But I find fewer and fewer people who want to discuss how what we believe influences our daily life. I wonder, in fact, how learning and study influence my daily decisions. It is surely (1) what I learned in my early years with my family (2) my years at Berkeley, which may have been the most important and continuing influence on my life and (3) decades of reading and considering.
Sometimes, I think I am born again each day. I consider and ponder anew thoughts that I had considered fully formed.
Kara, That's essentially the dilemma of truth. It is fleeting, because as we get exposure to new things, our ideas of truth changes. Your truth today might be different tomorrow.
truth
Kara, sorry. I thought you said that after many years of living you have finally learned to think independently. You said that over the (many) years you have become increasingly convinced of the need for independent thinking.
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Yes, Joe. I had another junior moment.
What is the point of searching for Truth if you cannot recognize it when you find it?
Truth matters to some people, the rest settle for lies they can live with.
JL, the only truths that matter are the ones that we can verify, at least to some extent. If there is something we can't know, than not knowing it won't warp our veiw of our world, because it's not part of our world.
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Terry, don't you think that falsehood (deception) is also important? Consider the role of camoflague in the animal world.
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I agree, Rufio, but with the qualification that sometimes we only have to "verify" what we consider true to ourselves. It may not require evidence to convince others. But a truth that makes no difference is of no significance. You're right also that in a sense it is not even part--has no relevance--of our world. What did William James say? "A difference that makes no difference is no difference."
Terry, I think it's more like we think it's truth - until we learn different.
truth
Again I agree, C.I., we are content with a proposition about the world as being the truth UNTIL we find a better one, meaning until it does not work for us anymore.
"Sometimes, I think I am born again each day. I consider and ponder anew thoughts that I had considered fully formed." - Kara
I feel the same way. Things just keep getting deeper every day.
There are three kinds of truth; objective, subjective, and Universal. The first deals with the logic of pure conceptual form. The forms that make up the ideas that give our thoughts sustenance. Objective truth deals with that which is accepted within the common reasoning of the particular community. It may be grounded in math, science, philosophy, or the existence of a picnic table. The second kind of truth deals with the individual and the particular frequency of objective reality that person subscribes to. The third kind is a little harder to describe. The first two only exist because human beings exist. The third would exist regardless of what forms the physical world took. It is the fact that there is a Truth about the world. Known to man or not, there must be a final Truth about existence. Most live content within their particular subjective truth, some (mostly the philosophers) venture deep into the objective truths, and even fewer ever come face to face with the Universal Truth or Absolute Truth. This type does not come to us through reason, logic, or a pattern of clever thoughts; it comes to us through acceptance of it within our justification of ourselves and the world. Once this happens it is like a new universe is entered, almost like Neo must feel in the movie "The Matrix" when he enters the matrix for the first time. Even if you never experienced Absolute Truth in the way I am speaking of, I can't conceive how anyone who has thought deeply about their existence could deny the necessity of an Absolute Truth about the universe. If you believe in Mathematics you must believe in an Absolute Truth, it is what gives mathematics its predicting power. It is why a clock is able to tell us the time. I guess maybe this is a little to obvious to me, maybe I am off base.
Subjective truth is opinion. Objective truth is a local fact. Universal Truth is both of these plus everything outside the human brain. Universal Truth is where true and false come to harmony. That is why it is universal. Yes, it is as simple as it sounds. As simple as a human without an ego.
Frank Apisa wrote:TRUTH!!!!
Ahhh...yeah, truth matters.
Unfortuntely, the Ultimate Truth is simply not available to us -- and we have to settle for a rather poor runner up -- the truth.
Often "the truth" is acknowledgement of the fact that we don't know THE TRUTH.
Apologies for only asking questions without contributing much to discussion... but thats my intellect limitation...
What happends if we finally know the Ultimate Truth...
IDEAL Singh wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:TRUTH!!!!
Ahhh...yeah, truth matters.
Unfortuntely, the Ultimate Truth is simply not available to us -- and we have to settle for a rather poor runner up -- the truth.
Often "the truth" is acknowledgement of the fact that we don't know THE TRUTH.
Apologies for only asking questions without contributing much to discussion... but thats my intellect limitation...
What happends if we finally know the Ultimate Truth...
What makes you suppose the Ultimate Truth can be known?
And since your questions intimates that it can be known, perhaps you will share with us the names of anyone you suppose KNOWS the Ultimate Truth.
mindless wrote:"Sometimes, I think I am born again each day. I consider and ponder anew thoughts that I had considered fully formed." - Kara
I feel the same way. Things just keep getting deeper every day.
There are three kinds of truth; objective, subjective, and Universal. The first deals with the logic of pure conceptual form. The forms that make up the ideas that give our thoughts sustenance. Objective truth deals with that which is accepted within the common reasoning of the particular community. It may be grounded in math, science, philosophy, or the existence of a picnic table. The second kind of truth deals with the individual and the particular frequency of objective reality that person subscribes to. The third kind is a little harder to describe. The first two only exist because human beings exist. The third would exist regardless of what forms the physical world took. It is the fact that there is a Truth about the world. Known to man or not, there must be a final Truth about existence. Most live content within their particular subjective truth, some (mostly the philosophers) venture deep into the objective truths, and even fewer ever come face to face with the Universal Truth or Absolute Truth. This type does not come to us through reason, logic, or a pattern of clever thoughts; it comes to us through acceptance of it within our justification of ourselves and the world. Once this happens it is like a new universe is entered, almost like Neo must feel in the movie "The Matrix" when he enters the matrix for the first time. Even if you never experienced Absolute Truth in the way I am speaking of, I can't conceive how anyone who has thought deeply about their existence could deny the necessity of an Absolute Truth about the universe. If you believe in Mathematics you must believe in an Absolute Truth, it is what gives mathematics its predicting power. It is why a clock is able to tell us the time. I guess maybe this is a little to obvious to me, maybe I am off base.
Subjective truth is opinion. Objective truth is a local fact. Universal Truth is both of these plus everything outside the human brain. Universal Truth is where true and false come to harmony. That is why it is universal. Yes, it is as simple as it sounds. As simple as a human without an ego.
I suppose we are to accept that all this that you have written...is the TRUTH?
Why should anyone do that?
You will know when you experience Ultimate Truth because you will feel like you are finally observing the world in its natural state for the first time. Its not that our thoughts are not natural, but they always involve preconceived notions about the form the world takes. Many people write about this phenomenon in very different ways but it all comes down to the same thing, it is a state of observation where your mind some how transcends its own tendencies to draw conclusions and create orderly understanding and the universe is observed in it pure state for the first time. I know the majority of people would never agree that these are real experiences, I have only recently come to respect that this is a real phenomenon. I am not religious and don't think that these experiences have anything to do with spirituality. I am a scientist and it took a long time for me to believe and understand that there is more to the mind than objective and subjective reality. There is more to consciousness than reason, logic, and emotion.
Unlike most scientists, I have learned not to think that we have begun to really understand the universe. When the doors of possibility are closed the imagination begins to die. Imagination is what got us here and what will move us closer to a real understanding of the universe. There is so much we don't know and can't understand that it makes me sad to hear intellectuals discussing issues such as the mind like there is no room for something that does not fit inside their little intellectual box of tools. I don't know everything and will always admit that there are possibilities I could not conceive the way my mind is constructed. It is the responsibility of the intellectual to understand that they are limited and leave the doors open for the next generation of imaginative young minds. This is how progress is made. Please don't forget this when you tuck you children in. I have a daughter and I remind her of this every chance I get.
"Why should anyone do that?" - Frank
Only the people who are capable of understanding what I have written the way that I really mean it will accept it, most likely because they have already come to the same conclusion with a similar vocabulary. I am not trying to change anyones mind, just express my thought on the subject. This is really more of an exercise for me than for everyone else. I don't have many people around me that think about these kind of things so I choose to visit discussion groups when I get time.
I am open to discussion on the matter as long as there is an audience open enough to give my particular way of expression some consideration.
