Energy

@RexRed,

RexRed wrote:

I see so you are the one sending out this disinformation campaign to protect shareholders about nuclear fuels being cheaper in the long run...

I have no idea of what you are trying to say here. You can verify that nuclear fuel is cheaper than (say) coal per unit of energy released simply by going on the Department of Energy Web site. Nuclear powerplants are required to fund their eventual demolition and cleanup out of a surcharge applied to their current output. Even with it, their product is cheaper than most other sources. No other industrial or power producing plant meets such a standard. Storing spent nuclear fuel is a relatively cheap and simple thing, and our nuclear plants have paid a special tax to fund the design and construction by the Federal government of a permanent storage facility at Yucca Mountain on the nevada nuclear weapons test site. The site was completed meeting all the specifications mandated by the government , but Harry reid prevented its opening as a local political issue. The nuclear plants continue to pay the tax though, and it is still cheaper than the alternatives.

RexRed wrote:

You are talking about government getting off their butts? How about the private sector getting off their butts? They are the cause of this. and should be required to pay full restoration of the facilities PERPETUALLY...

The Hanford site was built by the Federal Government. Private sector nuclear facilities are required to prefund their ultimate demolition and cleanup out of current operations as I described above. Only our government could get away with something like Hanford (or Solyndra).

RexRed wrote:

Let's see how fast they then transition to cleaner energy sources and change their tune.

So far the government is trying hard but mot achieving much. The big reductions in our GHG emissions have come from building (zero emission) nuclear power plants and transitioning to natural gas power generators which involve about 60% the emissions as coal plants. Together these private sector initiatives vastly exceed all that has come from government subsidized wind and solar power. [/quote]

RexRed wrote:

I admit my knowledge of nuclear energy and physics is sorely lacking but not as lacking as your conscience...

You know nothing about my conscience. Moreover yours is apparently based on prejudgments about things you admit you don't know or understand. What kind of conscience is that?

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@RexRed,

RexRed wrote:

I see so you are the one sending out this disinformation campaign to protect shareholders about nuclear fuels being cheaper in the long run...

I have no idea what you are writing about here. You can verify that nuclear fuels are cheaper than fossil fuels (per unit of energy released) simply by consulting the Energy Department web site. By the way these costs for nuclear (alone) include charges on current sdales for the eventual demolition and cleanup of the nuclear plants. They also include special taxes that have paid for the government-designed and built repository at Yucca Mountain (on the former nuclear weapons test facility in Nevada). The site was completed and fully met its government mandated design criteria, but Harry Reid prevented its opening for local political reasons. The nuclear plants are still paying the extra tax. No other industrial facilities in the country come close to doing anything like this. You are wrong on every point.

RexRed wrote:

You are talking about government getting off their butts? How about the private sector getting off their butts? They are the cause of this. and should be required to pay full restoration of the facilities PERPETUALLY...

I outlined above that the private sector power plants have already paid for this stuff. Our problem here is our governmnent and the politics that arises from placating ignoramuses like you.

RexRed wrote:

Let's see how fast they then transition to cleaner energy sources and change their tune.

They're trying hard but haven't got much done. Renewables (excluding hydroelectric) amount to only about 3% of our electrical energy production - not a lot to show for all the subsidies spent. The cost differential is still a prohibiticve barrier.

RexRed wrote:

I admit my knowledge of nuclear energy and physics is sorely lacking but not as lacking as your conscience... An encouraging sign. The first step in acquiring understanding is the admission of your ignorance. Now how about studying a little.

You don't know anything about my conscience. However I do know something about yours. You are quite willing to condem as immoral things that you freely admit you don't understand. Not a particularly admirable thing.

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Yes, why spend billions on meteorological analysis and not be told a comet is landing in Russia or the earth no less. Why put millions of probes all over the earth and not be warned of earthquakes in Chile and Haiti? Tsunami tidal sensors are carefully placed throughout our oceans that don't warn people of a tsunami in Japan...

Maybe sometimes it is scientists that if they took a moment from peering into there microscopes and began to try and look at the whole picture and make some sense of the data they already have available.

Yes renewable energy only makes up a small part of the total... NOW... But if it were invested in it could grow and one day become the only form of energy in the world.

AND it is more expensive at this point to develop.

I don't know how atoms are smashed, I find the subject fascinating but a distraction also. Like if I were to try and, out of the blue, become a ballet dancer. But that does not mean I cannot dance or that I am not skilled and agile on my feet. I grew up in a rugged coastal Maine landscape.

Just as I grew up with a propensity for certain sciences.

I do know the magnitude of a nuclear disaster. Even a tiny one...

Chernobyl
The security checkpoint is 10 km from the reactor.
The "exclusion zone" is 30+ km from the reactor.

Comment: 30 SQUARE MILES!

And that is for a very small melt down..

Renewable energy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy

Now this wiki article is not a slanted report written by a bunch of profiteers.

also,
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-26/fukushima-desolation-worst-since-nagasaki-as-population-flees.html

George you have spent your life peering into a microscope (so to speak) seeking monetary revenue oblivious to the dying world around you. You seem to think you can define sub atomic nothingness while you seem incapable of standing back and appreciating the everything, the all, the sacred preservation of life.

What if I were to pose this, the longer we put off our eventual transition to renewable energy the more expensive renewables will become. Most renewable energy even so requires a tiny bit of non renewable energy...

So we have a window of the future... a giant door in the sky...

And we will need a giant ladder (figurative) to this giant door... the longer we depend on VALUABLE nonrenewable commodities and toss these valuable resources to the profiteers and greedy litter bug consumers the more chance we will not be able to construct the ladder to the giant door.

Well will need the help of billions of people to construct this ladder.

And we will need these valuable nonrenewable resources.

We need to shift the power radically fast from the free market to a commodity based energy government. Everybody needs energy so to avoid waste a collective government program is better than free market energy. All men and women are created equal AND require various energy at various times. But there are extremes when it comes even to individual energy rights. Your right to create and consume energy should and must not come with a price for future generations...

Sure, government energy workers would get paid too.. but there would not be the incentive to squash innovation for profit...

Right George?

The private corporations would not need to call the government to clean up their messes anymore. Because the energy and commerce would be in the hands of the collective world and not a few billionaires whose greed for power and nonrenewable energy can never be satisfied. These individuals, people, corporations, whatever we label them as, are train robbers... They exist paying no cost (or event taxes) for their own waste dumps and they jeopardize the future of our civilization.

1 Reply

@RexRed,

What is the definition of renewable? The sun will burn out in about four billion years and will envelop the earth. Geological history makes it clear that the earth will suffer many mass life threratening changes, ranging from ice ages to reoccurring hot, wet ones; mass destruction due ro asteroid impacts; collapses and reversals of earths magnetic field due to shifts in the convective currents of the hot magma in the earth's core, and the resulting huge increase in radiation levels from the sun -- all long before the sun and earth die.

We have enough nuclear fuel to last many centuries. Is that not renewable?

Subsidizing or forcing the use of wind and solar power will surely wreck our economy and cause serious levels of human suffering. Worse it won't make either any cheaper. We have a lot of economic experience that confirms this. Subsidies and mandates have as a chief effect the formation of organized groups determined to preserve the subsidies and mandates. They don't reduce costs: they eliminate the incentives for innovatiuon that might reduce cost.

We had a reactor meltdown it Three Mile Island that was every bit as complete as that at Chernobyl, but it caused no measurable adverse effect on human health at all. The reason was ours had a containment building as do all our reactors. Chernobyl did not. Moreover the effects of Chernobyl are much exaggerated. More people die annually in China in coal mine accidents than were killed at Chernobyl in even the most alarmist analyses.

We have been over the Fukushima bit before. NO ONE was lilled as a result of the reactor accident, though about 18,000 were killed by the tusnami that caused it. Moreover the accident itself was preventable. Had the emergency power deisels been built on a platform above the wave height (and at the original elevation of the site) the accident would not have happened.

You are merely appealing to fantasy and emotion as a way to avoid the apparently more difficult task of thinking or learning. Too bad.

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@georgeob1,

My definition of renewable is like "the lady or the tiger" film if you have ever heard of it or seen it. Behind one door is the lady and behind another door is a tiger you have got to choose which door...

If you knew nuclear power was a finite though sizable source and behind door number 1 and the sun behind door 2 that has burned stably enough to create life for billions of years... what we could perceive as an infinite source of continuous radiant energy...

Well, is the sun behind the door with the lady or the door with the tiger?

The tiger represent nuclear energy and the moment we try and use this energy it will pounce out the door and devour us.

Renewable energy is "sustainable"... That means it has the greatest longevity (the sun) the greatest overall energy factor. Where all the nuclear power on the earth would not even effect the sun one tiny bit if we were to try and send it all off to be burned up in the enormity of the sun.

Renewable energy is sustainable... can we sustain a Chernobyl here and a Fukushima there a Three Mile Island here a Washington toxic dump thing there. Is that even sustainable?

Oil spills and their disastrous toxicity to ecosystems and life for many years and non renewable energy to boot, and all the CO2... Is that sustainable?

I don't think so...

The lady or the tiger...

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http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?c=Page&childpagename=GovEnergyOffice%2FCBONLayout&cid=1251600835588&pagename=CBONWrapper

2012 was a historic year of achievement for wind energy. For the first time wind energy became the number one source of new U.S. electric generating capacity, providing some 42 percent of all new generating capacity. The American Wind Energy Association (AWEA) announced in 2012 an additional 13,124 megawatts (MW) of electric generating capacity was installed nationwide, achieving over 60,000 MW of cumulative wind capacity. This level of capacity is capable of providing almost 15 million homes or all of Colorado, Iowa, Maryland, Michigan, Nevada, and Ohio combined with electricity. The final numbers will be released in April in AWEA’s annual report.

On April 15th, 2012 Xcel energy set a U.S. record by generating nearly 57% of their energy demand from wind energy here in Colorado, demonstrating the potential of wind energy in our state.

Colorado recently climbed the ranks from 12th to 10th for new capacity installations in the nation.

http://www.awea.org/

http://www.awea.org/learnabout/publications/reports/upload/3Q2012-Market-Report_Public-Version.pdf

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https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/535014_10151430707522722_897753585_n.jpg

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World Bank warns economic powers: Climate change is real
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/02/16/world-bank-warns-economic-powers-climate-change-is-real/

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Your metaphor is badly out of place. The Lady or the Tiger is a short story written by Frank Stockton abpout 70 years ago. It is about human nature, more particularly about the human nature of a "barbarian" woman, not whatever you are talking about. Moreover the metaphor falls flat. The sun is no alternative - we have it no matter what we do with other sources of energy.

The cumulative harm wrought by nuclear energy per unit of power produced is far less than that from burning wood, coal, natural gas or petroleum. We cannot sustain the human life on this planet with wind and solar power alone. We aren't even close to being able to think about it no matter what the cost. The cost is so high that attempting to do so would cripple the world economy. Read up about the current situation in Germany which energetically pursued a goal of developing 16% of their actual power generated from wind. The cost is already prohibitive and the power produced less than expected. They are cutting back on their investments in it.

The 60,000 MW installed capacity quoted by the American Wind power Association (a reliable source of self-serving, distorted statistics) is capable of producing (at its 28% capacity factor) an average of 16.8 MW of average output. That works out to about 3.2% of our total electrical power consumption. The 13,124 MW of new installed capacity cited this past year is far less than the yield from new gas turbine powerplants. Indeed it represents the output of exactly three coal-fired plants and we have several hundred operating in the country.

Oil spills are readily cleaned up and do not represent a long-term threat to anything. Petroleum consists of organic molecules that are readily digested by bacteria everywhere. Indeed the BP oil spill was largely consumed over a four month period by naturally occurring bacteria in the Gulf - even without human intervention.

The head of the World Bank is a banker, not an atmospheric scientist. We already know that global warming is "likely to be real" according to the scientific panel commissioned by the UN. They went on to say thsat there has "probably been an increase in the global temperature of up to 0.5 deg C over the last century.

The reported increase in the cost and damage associated with storms has already been thoroughly debunked. Violent storms have NOT increased in either frequency or intensity. Instead, population and human development increased have increased our total exposure to such events. This is particularly true in coastal areas like our Gulf Coast. Just 50 years ago they were wild and undeveloped, because back then in the days before government bailouts folks lkearned they ras a very real risk of loosing their homes if they built on the coast.

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Estimates raised for nuclear-sized asteroid blast that hit Russia
http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/16/16985690-estimates-raised-for-nuclear-sized-asteroid-blast-that-hit-russia?lite

1 Reply

Russian Meteor Exposed Vulnerability
http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/50835138#50835138

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Your metaphor is badly out of place. The Lady or the Tiger is a short story written by Frank Stockton abpout 70 years ago. It is about human nature, more particularly about the human nature of a "barbarian" woman, not whatever you are talking about. Moreover the metaphor falls flat. The sun is no alternative - we have it no matter what we do with other sources of energy.

I have never read the book "The Lady or the Tiger or seen the movie I have just had its plot vaguely explained to me many years ago. I plan to watch it soon.

I was using the allegory in its simplest form.

You say George, "The sun is no alternative - we have it no matter what we do with other sources of energy."

This is where you are wrong....

We could easily cause an explosion that could blot the sun out on earth for perhaps even a few thousand years. I know of many scenarios. There is no telling what humans will do to exploit the earth 'till its livability is beyond repair. Like nuclear energy slowly destroys the earth's livability... No human race, no need for energy...

I am again reminded of the Easter Islanders who cut every tree down on the island... They lived for perhaps hundreds of years without a single tree grow on the island. So what was the consequence? They became land-locked because they exploited a resource to extinction. No giant door for them...

Wood... no wood, no boats and no, errr... "ladders"... isolated till they were discovered.

They had the sun and nothing else because they took a resource and instead of mastering its renew-ability they made it a capitalistic commodity and mined, hunted, killed and sold the resource without any concern of its eventual depletion.

Had they mastered other forms of energy, like thermal energy from the caves on the island, they could have staved off their insatiable infatuation for wood.

So they had their high priest "scientist" say go cut the trees and that he will pray to the the bird god in the temple and more trees will miraculously sprout out of the ground. Have faith...

So they cut the last tree down and offered it to the egg/bird god... with it died all the seeds to their own renewable energy.

When the trees did not miraculously regrow the Islanders cried to the rock gods but they just stood and looked vacantly out into the unknown sea of endless ocean, clouds and stars at night.

Easter island was a microcosm of the earth today. A lesson about hunting resources to the brink of extinction with only capitalistic commerce in mind and without any concern for the renew-ability of the resources we take for granted and thoughtlessly consume.

If we can rely as much as possible on renewable sources (like the sun) and maintain their viability we sustain our planet. One day we many need a boat or a spaceship that we build and take these living seeds along to our new home.

It may seem inconceivable, but it is not impossible that there is a giant door that leads to the cosmos.

Yes we can squander our resources to the point that we can no longer harness the sun's true potential. Just as the depletion of a wood resource led to the islanders losing their ability to fish offshore and explore the ocean's resources. A loss of vital non renewable resource could land lock us on earth and tie our hands when it comes to in the end harnessing the sun's energy to an exponential degree capable of powering our offshore galactic exploratory journeys.

The rampant beetles eating the trees in Colorado are only an omen of the times and an echo from the past of human consumption of our own resources. These Colorado beetles are also a direct result of our consumption of fossil fuels over that of renewable energy.

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Why 'Safe' Regulation of Fracking in New York Is a Fiction
http://www.alternet.org/fracking/why-safe-regulation-fracking-new-york-fiction

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Climate Rally In Washington Brought Out 40,000 People, Organizers Estimate
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/17/climate-rally-washington-organizers_n_2707886.html?1361143846&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009

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The Lady or the Tiger

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https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/47795_541979165832541_511551457_n.jpg

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@RexRed,

RexRed wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Your metaphor is badly out of place. The Lady or the Tiger is a short story written by Frank Stockton abpout 70 years ago. It is about human nature, more particularly about the human nature of a "barbarian" woman, not whatever you are talking about. Moreover the metaphor falls flat. The sun is no alternative - we have it no matter what we do with other sources of energy.

I have never read the book "The Lady or the Tiger or seen the movie I have just had its plot vaguely explained to me many years ago. I plan to watch it soon.

I was using the allegory in its simplest form.

You say George, "The sun is no alternative - we have it no matter what we do with other sources of energy."

This is where you are wrong....

It's not an allegory, it's a 20th century Short Story. You did, however use its theme concerning the question of "which door will he/we open, and as you stipulated it would be either solar power or the mix we have today. However this construct is absurd and unrealistic in that if we continue using nuclear, gas and even coal power to supply our energy we will still have the option to expand our reliace on solar if and when it becomes price competitive. Indeed such an arrangement would maximize the incentives for the developers of solar power to make it more efficient and make the vague dreams you entertain more not less likely. Your habit of stipulating unrealistic strict alternatives, all of noe none of the other, is rather infantile.

That solar power is not a feasible alternative for more than a very small fraction of our power needs is entirely obvious. It exists only because of very large government subsidies that we can no longer afford. This is where you are wrong.

The rest of your post is merely mneaningless babble.

1 Reply

@RexRed,

RexRed wrote:

Estimates raised for nuclear-sized asteroid blast that hit Russia
http://cosmiclog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/16/16985690-estimates-raised-for-nuclear-sized-asteroid-blast-that-hit-russia?lite

What is a "nuclear sized asteroid" ?????? They are generally made of rocks and ice. Rolling Eyes

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

RexRed wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Your metaphor is badly out of place. The Lady or the Tiger is a short story written by Frank Stockton abpout 70 years ago. It is about human nature, more particularly about the human nature of a "barbarian" woman, not whatever you are talking about. Moreover the metaphor falls flat. The sun is no alternative - we have it no matter what we do with other sources of energy.

I have never read the book "The Lady or the Tiger or seen the movie I have just had its plot vaguely explained to me many years ago. I plan to watch it soon.

I was using the allegory in its simplest form.

You say George, "The sun is no alternative - we have it no matter what we do with other sources of energy."

This is where you are wrong....

It's not an allegory, it's a 20th century Short Story. You did, however use its theme concerning the question of "which door will he/we open, and as you stipulated it would be either solar power or the mix we have today. However this construct is absurd and unrealistic in that if we continue using nuclear, gas and even coal power to supply our energy we will still have the option to expand our reliace on solar if and when it becomes price competitive. Indeed such an arrangement would maximize the incentives for the developers of solar power to make it more efficient and make the vague dreams you entertain more not less likely. Your habit of stipulating unrealistic strict alternatives, all of noe none of the other, is rather infantile.

That solar power is not a feasible alternative for more than a very small fraction of our power needs is entirely obvious. It exists only because of very large government subsidies that we can no longer afford. This is where you are wrong.

The rest of your post is merely mneaningless babble.

Yes the story is an allegory the tiger represents the princess's jealousy and the lady her humility...

You are talking to someone who has their prepositions memorized George...

I have also studied about 50 of the Greek and Latin figures of speech. I studied them for many years... Remember, I am ordained clergy...

I bet you can only name at best three types of figures of speech...

Metaphors, similes and allegories do you know the Greeks categorized as many as 250 different futures of speech, and some figures of speech have over 50 variations.

al·le·go·ry
/ˈaləˌgôrē/
Noun
A story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one.

Comment:
I am tried of reasoning with idiots... Considering your insolence I must remark, who can't even spell let alone understand complex grammar...

Here is a idiom for you George, "You are full of crap..."

ellipsis, condescensio, hypocatastasis, anthropomorphism...

Do you know, off the top of your head, what hypocatastasis means?

I have known this term and how to define it for over 20 years...

In short it means, emphasis by omission...

I am having a bad day so sorry if I seem...

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https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/539333_10152606173290301_1728320648_n.jpg

WHAT WAR ON COAL? The coal industry has often decried the Obama administration's "War on Coal." If that's the case, it's a war that the coal industry is winning. http://ow.ly/hR3gE

In just the past 60 days, the BLM has rubberstamped the following coal projects in Colorado ALONE:

- Approving a 3-square-mile expansion of the West Elk coal mine into roadless National Forest lands right next to a wilderness area
- Proposing to approve another 3-square-mile expansion of the Bowie mine, which would net 9 million tons of coal
- Approving a 5-square-mile expansion of the Deserado Mine in northwest Colorado, which feeds into a power plant that contributes to dirty air in the polluted Uintah Basin.

And this is not even a complete list. So while we appreciate the President's lofty words in his State of the Union speech about taking action on climate change, it doesn't matter one bit if it's not matched by action.

Click SHARE or LIKE if you agree! Share your thoughts below.

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