failures art wrote:
You're making this waaaaaaaay too hard. It's quite simple, and a reasonable request. I'll demonstrate. Perhaps an example will help you compose my burden.
"compose my burden" love it, still don't quite get it but it sounds real good.
I'll use it a couple of times myself if you don't mind and then will find understanding.
Do you mean to say me to compose for you a construct that would be your burden to either take on as your own or lift me of mine?
(It really does not matter you answer, I just like your language and investigating it, I don't know if you know this but you are fairly interesting)
failures art wrote:
For you to convince me that (1) everyone prays, and (2) those who don't have to suppress it here's what I'd need you to demonstrate.
A - You'd have to provide a definition of "prayer" that is agreed upon. I'd accept that prayers are a person's attempt (successful or not) at communicating with any supernatural construct (a god, a fairy, a ghost) by either orating or by the idea that one's thoughts can be transmitted mentally.
I accept what you accept but find I must dig a little deeper to see if it will always hold true for all forms of
first what forms of communication are we talking about, there are many forms of communication that do not use words but which are still language,
secondly what languages if any transmit,
thirdly what this has to do with communion and whether communion is also communication, language, transmission and prayer, and if communion is essential for it to be termed prayer,
fourthly if one can establish IF communication or communion with the self is possible above or outside the realms of meditation,
fifthly if meditation is a form of prayer or prayer a form of meditation,
sixthly if prayer is a psychological and or spiritual tool construct or delusion,
and whether it is a consciousness a subconsciousness or unconscious action or reaction,
seventhly if it prayer is not more than psychological and is in fact and does in fact effect one physically so therefore becomes or already was medical rather than just psychological/spiritual being able to prove real cause
and effect of prayer, to see if it a causation exists in or of prayer and whether we can narrow the event to psychological or physical or possibly both,
eighthly by defining both areas we can see what we know or do not know about the nature of the things basis in reality what instigates it and what ends it, learning more of its construction or causality leading us to a hopeful prayed for causal connection consensus. (We may even be able to find Aristotle in there somewhere?)
lastly what constitutes supernatural and if it is not rather just natural in the guise of aggrandisement, in other words what constitutes the reality or basis of the supernatural before that of the ethereal baseless.
I suppose I am being a little bit unfair because I am always by any means necessary trying to prove God and until I just analysed my self here for you now I did not realise that was one of my goals or subconsciously even the reason I opened the thread.
So being fair we need only deal with up to number six as they deal with prayer and not necessarily God.
Although in determining whether the subject does or does not do something as a matter of course or as a restriction we do also need to at some point look into what the subject is releasing or restricting towards, but for the sake of this we shall keep it to an look at the prayer not what is being prayed to unless of course the praying is the prayer or the prayer is the praying.
But will say that by measuring the cause and effect we can often times be then able to see where and what the origin or purpose is, so would be able to give you an answer as to what I thought prayer actually is.
Basically I must first demonstrate what I believe prayer is and I don't think I can do that right now, I am still looking to define and refine my own prayer status, which does go some way to saying that I should not make an assumption that everyone does something I am not totally sure what that something is.
failures art wrote:
Similarly...I would not accept a definition of prayer that defines it as any oration or internal thought. You need to define prayer such that it is a specific thing away from other concepts. In other words, defining prayer as meditation only convolute the two concepts and projects your notion of what meditation is onto others.
No not any oration but certainly a communion of something beyond your grasp, and again communication of communion needs to be established.
And meditation may very well be communication with the self and a working of the self but it may not be a communion because meditation is thought and contemplation and study of the self, but the communion with the self is both a sharing of thoughts and feelings rather than contemplating them, but in both cases, one; that meditation is asking of the self, two; that prayer is sharing, we find we cannot get way from the fact that to share and ponder the self is still a journey of self discovery is still a study. They may be completely different studies but they are both being answered by the self which is seeking.
I hope that makes sense.
I do still believe that meditation and prayer have distinct differences but they also have some striking similarities as well.
If like me you look at prayer objectively.
I have just realised I am putting to much onto the word "communion" so will start to rephrase it from now on and look for a better word.
Although it is pretty much an encapsulation.
failures art wrote:
B - You'd have to demonstrate that individuals that might pray "accidentally" are not doing so out of some cultural specific habit. For instance, I don't believe in a god, but I use phrases like "Oh, my god" because they are common language that expresses meaning outside of the religious context. So if you can demonstrate that people habitually do this universally (and that you're not simply projecting onto the world through your own cultural lens), then you'll demonstrate that whatever the habit of prayer is that it happens in all cultures (keep in mind your original claim).
But what if you are like me and believe you can pray but it doe snot need to be towards God or a supernatural aspect of God, what if it is a prayer to the natural human part which is God.
I should explain that I am also of the belief that God is never more real and realised than when it is found inside me you and any human being who has being.
So you may now see why I am having difficulty with this.
I believe praying to self is not just praying to self it is praying to God self.
Never more is God proved to me than when I see a Human being or look at myself in the mirror.
That is not as narcissistic as it sounds.
As I believe the only way to get a response from God in life is to get a response from another or myself which is also where the main understanding I hold of the devil comes form as well. But I have not even started to scratch the surface on that damnation and abomination.
(If it helps I think Lucifer is not the devil,
but I digress again,
you will find I do this annoyingly often)
Basically you don't know if you have the answer until you find the right question to ask yourself and once found the question we may find we already do know the answer.
We all know a hell of a lot more than what we think we have already answered, for the simple fact we have only just started to ask ourselves anything.
I hope that last sentence found understanding with you.
failures art wrote:
C - Lastly, you'd need to demonstrate that a person with no concept of prayer or of any supernatural abstract, would pray as defined in 'A' above.
Sorry but I am only just starting to define my own concept of prayer which makes it almost impossible to do it for someone who denies they have one themselves.
Which again goes some way to disproving what I proffered to begin with as I still am finding it difficultly fun to find my own.
So, and I hope it does not put you off further discourse, I now at least admit it is still possible what some here have said that they do not pray or subdue it may in fact be true, for the only reason I have not as yet come to fully capture for me or for you what I think and believe prayer to actually be.
But I still hold that my first impression (which still has not finished growing or shrinking) of what prayer means to me meant and still slightly means that all do do it or subdue it.
All I can think of to prove or disprove me or you right now is for more of you and me to make distinction between prayer and meditation.
To really get into what meditation is and is not.
Because at the very least IF I am proven false in my assumptions I would still say that everyone at least meditates and or prays.
But you still have to do some work in proving to me what prayer is not.
I have been open in my notions and all I have heard is that "no I don't" not really that they have a full understanding of what either prayer or meditation is, is not, uses, ignores, caused by, effected by, inertialised by or instigated by.
I may even go so far as to say it is natural to do so until learned not to do so.
So no need for avoidance because they have removed the problem altogether.
I am not sure I believe this but once someone proves me other wise you may hear me say this and then we can move onto, "we are born praying but can grow out of it". But that really does sound like the subject of bedtime stories and if not told any maybe you never did believe in Santa.
All my best, hope to hear from you soon.