Methods of Prayer

@sometime sun,

sometime sun wrote:

How would you define prayer?

talking to yourself but believing some god is paying attention to the conversation.

@sometime sun,

sometime sun wrote:

How would you define prayer?

Prayer is a form of formalised and ritualised irrational hope. Irrational hope arises when there is a perceived problem that requires resolution but where there is no material resolution available. At which point prayer becomes the last irrational hope of the desperate/ignorant/powerless. All of the above, whilst psychologically understandable, is nevertheless invalid in that it does not address the underlying problem. Rather, it merely helps the human psyche to live with that problem

In the above sense, of course, prayer serves a useful psychological function. The problem is, though, it's not related to anything real outside of the neuronal patterns of which it is comprised.

2 Replies

@Krumple,

Prayer can also be communal?

Do you talk to yourself Krumple?
If so does this mean it may be a personal prayer to the self?

I think this might be closer to explaining my statement in the beginning where I said I believe everyone prays, because I am of the mind that everyone talks to them self, has communion with the self prays at least to them selves.

1 Reply

@stevecook172001,

This is a very useful post and I thank you for it.
I will think on your words and try to reply if not shortly then tomorrow.
This is most succinct.
It may be a little prejudicial/bracing but that is what we find we all must do from time to time about our belief/conviction structure.
Thank you

0 Replies

@sometime sun,

sometime sun wrote:

Prayer can also be communal?

Do you talk to yourself Krumple?
If so does this mean it may be a personal prayer to the self?

No I don't talk to myself, but if i do it's probably because i am assuming someone is actually listening. But i don't go begging for things to be different than how they are. I accept life in its completeness both harsh and good, so why would I want it to be any different. Those who complain and want their god to fix their problems are just greedy babies in my opinion. You can't always win in life, you have to eventually lose and no matter how good you are eventually you will. That is not being pessimistic it is being realistic. If you can't accept failure then you don't deserve success.

sometime sun wrote:

I think this might be closer to explaining my statement in the beginning where I said I believe everyone prays, because I am of the mind that everyone talks to them self, has communion with the self prays at least to them selves.

Na, like i said what would the point be? I don't hope for stuff that I can not effect myself. If I can change things, then there is no need to pray, and if i can't change things then what use would praying be? To anyone who tells me that their prayers are always answered, i ask them then if some god is fulfilling your prayers why is he not preventing people from starving to death? Sure god will makes sure you don't lose your job, or that your next door neighbor will stop throwing his trash in your yard or maybe the girl in your world studies class will like you. Or that you will have enough money to pay your bills, but can't do something as simple as make sure a 3 year old doesn't die from starvation. I deplore any god that would favor some asshole asking for his favorite team to win the game, while ignoring something as important as hunger.

It's such a slap in the face to all those who are suffering for no good reason while some rich white girl in the Midwest is saying she prayed for a check to pay for her college course and it showed up. And she's thanking Jesus for the money. I want to punch her in the face and take that check, buy some food and feed the starving children with it. Makes me sick how people talk about this complete nonsense sometimes.

2 Replies

@Krumple,

I think you are absolutely great Krumple.
You don't mince your words.
I almost completely agree with what you have just said.
I may use different language, but I think you have just spoken at least one fundamental truth to mind.
I will reply more fully to this tomorrow if I find anything more I would like to add.
Thank you

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@sometime sun,

sometime sun wrote:

Could prayer be seen as any conversation and communion between any people or any thing or must it always be directed toward God?
So I stand by the fact I do not or cannot pray to God at the moment but I and you may very well be praying at this very moment, as I am sharing with you my hopes and fears and hoping for a resolution and response from you.
Do you think prayer is only towards God?

Hi sometime sun
I see only one true prayer and thats a desire from the bottom of ones heart for the correction of our egoism. That is, a deep desire for our self gratification to be changed into a more giving and loving nature, intune with the nature of God. If this is our prayer/desire, then theres no need to put a PLEASE GOD infront of it, He can already feel our desire.
I wouldn't class our requests for some egoistic pleasure as a prayer, these are just mundane desires with a PLEASE GOD in front of them.

1 Reply

@sometime sun,

Quote:

My answers may be the most important to and for me, but I cannot make the claim that they are the most important to and for someone else.

Is this what you claim?
That because prayer may be useless or worse bad for you it is also useless for or bad for other people?

I think that organized religion has the ability to control people to surpress their baser impulses. In the best possible world, all people would strive to behave honestly, kindly, and morally. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

There are many people who, like kids afraid of their dad wielding a strap, need to have the fear and control that religion provides. For the folks who need to be reined in, religion can serve a useful purpose for the rest of society.

For others, the comfort of wish fulfillment through prayer can be very attractive.

1 Reply

@sometime sun,

You're making this waaaaaaaay too hard. It's quite simple, and a reasonable request. I'll demonstrate. Perhaps an example will help you compose my burden.

For you to convince me that (1) everyone prays, and (2) those who don't have to suppress it here's what I'd need you to demonstrate.

A - You'd have to provide a definition of "prayer" that is agreed upon. I'd accept that prayers are a person's attempt (successful or not) at communicating with any supernatural construct (a god, a fairy, a ghost) by either orating or by the idea that one's thoughts can be transmitted mentally.

Similarly...I would not accept a definition of prayer that defines it as any oration or internal thought. You need to define prayer such that it is a specific thing away from other concepts. In other words, defining prayer as meditation only convolute the two concepts and projects your notion of what meditation is onto others.

B - You'd have to demonstrate that individuals that might pray "accidentally" are not doing so out of some cultural specific habit. For instance, I don't believe in a god, but I use phrases like "Oh, my god" because they are common language that expresses meaning outside of the religious context. So if you can demonstrate that people habitually do this universally (and that you're not simply projecting onto the world through your own cultural lens), then you'll demonstrate that whatever the habit of prayer is that it happens in all cultures (keep in mind your original claim).

C - Lastly, you'd need to demonstrate that a person with no concept of prayer or of any supernatural abstract, would pray as defined in 'A' above.

A
R
T

1 Reply

@sometime sun,

sometime sun wrote:

This is a wonderful answer, it sounds like a litany, a rosary, a prayer against prayer.
Utterly fascinating.
Please describe further anything prayer related about your self.
What makes you feel more secure the instant of the cuff prayer or the later one?
Do you think you are contented in life?
Do you feel you need forgiveness or absolution when you make this 'mistake'? (not from God, from yourself)
Do you feel it is a mistake?

(I am NOT being sarcastic please expand)

Oops, sorry, I lost track of this thread. I'm afraid my attention on this forum has been a bit haphazard over the last week.

As to your questions (I didn't take any of the above as sarcastic, I've read enough of your posts to trust in your sincerity.):

I don't know that there is a lot more for me to say regarding my prayer activity. Neither the first prayer nor its thankful echo really make me feel more secure. The first just arises from a sense that I have reached the limits of what I am practically able to do in a certain situation, and I pray to exhaust my possibilities. It might imply desperation, but sometimes I do it when I do something as simple as drop someone off at the airport. The strictures placed on the prayer are not something I thought out a lot, they developed organically over time. They are an attempt at intellectual honesty. The last prayer of thanks just seems polite, but I sometimes apologize to chairs I bump into. It would be difficult for me to say whether I am contented or discontented, for I feel both ways quite often. I don't know that either dominates. Likewise, I do not feel any more guilty for praying when I do, than I do for not praying when I don't.

err...Perhaps a bit of background? Like I said, I was raised in a religious household in the US, by two parents of the same faith. Although I think they are both devout, they are also reasonable people who do not tend to moral or metaphysical absolutes. I maintain a very good relationship with both of them in adulthood, and I think they did as good a job raising their children as it is possible to do. I began to have serious religious doubts as an adolescent, quite the norm I'm sure. As my limited, hormone-addled intelligence developed certain inconsistencies within my parents' religion became increasingly obvious, and friction between my personal perceptions and the religion's dogmas slowly wore away my childhood faith. Of course, I make this sound simple, but it was emotionally complex. By this time, I think that it would be simple enough to classify me as an atheist, because I do not find reason to believe in nor figure for god in my daily life or in my philosophy. Any tendency towards militant atheism has long since left me, however, and I see such activity, anti-clericalism and priest-baiting and the like, as the activity of the newly converted or the immature. I see a plethora of asshole-ish activity undertaken in some god's name, but this does not really make me angry at religions much. First, there is no god to blame; and second, every group has its asshole faction to contend with. But by the same token, every group also contains reasonable people like my parents. I just satisfy myself by being angry at the assholes, and it is enough.

Are my prayers mistakes? No, I do them quite deliberately. In fact, I word them as carefully as I would a wish from a cartoon, Americanized djinn, watching for loopholes. Nonetheless, I regard them as about as meaningful as the "Eh!" with which they are often followed instead of an "Amen". They do not imply a belief in anything, just a lot of hope in the moment.

PS: I sometimes refer to myself as an agnostic, usually when I am talking to someone who is religious, to make whatever I am saying seem less hostile. For me there are about as many "good" reasons for believing in a deity or divine principle as there are "good" reasons for disbelieving. (There are multiple meanings of "good" colliding and colluding here.) Faith is a choice. But whichever way it goes, its actual effects are minor at best, and only affect one's actions to the extent to which one allows them to. Sometimes, I refer to myself as an agnostic simply out of respect to my parents. A logical inconsistency? Undoubtedly, but a tolerable one for me.

1 Reply

@sometime sun,

sometime sun wrote:

I believe everyone prays unless they actively force them selves to not do so.

So was wondering what your form of prayer is?
Who is it for?
Why you do it?

Please describe for me your form of prayer.
If you use any special words or addresses what they are?

And if you believe you do not pray please describe how you avoid it.

tears can also be a prayer...both happy for thank you and sad for help

i was sitting with mummy yesterday, whose recovery is coming along well now, and that enough can inspire a silent prayer, when the rain came pouring down in crazy swirling cascades like in a movie...surrealistic, after four months of waiting for relief. it came too late for the last five of us, who died just the day before in our own city. summer started early this year and by the first week of march the sun was already blazing down on us. humidity started earlier than ever before, making it all not only potentially fatal but unbearable for the survivors.

so i said to mummy (in her language, because i speak to muslims as a muslim, to atheists as an atheist, to materialists as a materialist, etc etc...because if you dont know someone's language it is a lot slower), 'Allah has saved us!'...and while the rain began to reach above the ankles of the children playing in the street, washing the dirt into a river of mud, i felt tears trying to come out...how amazing that a rain shower can be such a blessing and save so many lives and livelihoods, while all the rainstorms of my past life went by virtually unnoticed!

whether it was the rain or mummy's laugh, that had been stifled for over a month by a killer disease, long forgotten in the old new world...or the rain;
the entire evening turned into a prayer for both of us.

good luck to you james...you are also in my prayers
salima

1 Reply

Hey there salima,
I have been remiss,
I almost forgot about this thread and can see that there have been people good enough to reply that I have not yet been good enough to respond.
Will do so shortly.

0 Replies

@stevecook172001,

stevecook172001 wrote:

sometime sun wrote:

How would you define prayer?

Prayer is a form of formalised and ritualised irrational hope. Irrational hope arises when there is a perceived problem that requires resolution but where there is no material resolution available. At which point prayer becomes the last irrational hope of the desperate/ignorant/powerless. All of the above, whilst psychologically understandable, is nevertheless invalid in that it does not address the underlying problem. Rather, it merely helps the human psyche to live with that problem

In the above sense, of course, prayer serves a useful psychological function. The problem is, though, it's not related to anything real outside of the neuronal patterns of which it is comprised.

But you can share a prayer, a prayer such as the Alcoholics Anonymous prayer can serves as a wide sociological economy.
It socialises and economises people.
It is short and to the point, as long as you understand God in the prayer is what ever You desire. It is an almost mathematical and surgical instrument.
I am not entirely sure what I am trying to say here directly to you,
I think it has to do with commonality and recognition and how this solidarity can be used as a real cure for real afflictions.
I think also what I am saying is that a common shared prayer can be more than words, it can be a very real medically sound piece of apparatus, a logically sound tool and construction and medicine.
Words really have the power to heal not just a sick mind but a sick body, even if to get to the body it goes through the mind.
It really is not just psychological it is also physical.
Words and even art have such power over more than the mind.

Sorry if this post seems a little confused, but you earned a reply.
All my best

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@Krumple,

sometime sun wrote:

Prayer can also be communal?

Do you talk to yourself Krumple?
If so does this mean it may be a personal prayer to the self?

Krumple wrote:

No I don't talk to myself, but if i do it's probably because i am assuming someone is actually listening. But i don't go begging for things to be different than how they are. I accept life in its completeness both harsh and good, so why would I want it to be any different. Those who complain and want their god to fix their problems are just greedy babies in my opinion. You can't always win in life, you have to eventually lose and no matter how good you are eventually you will. That is not being pessimistic it is being realistic. If you can't accept failure then you don't deserve success.

You never address yourself?
You have no words you use to calm or upset?
The "assumption" there is someone listening, says a lot to me but I don't have the words available right now.
What is an assumption?
I understand a lot of people beg in prayers but I must say again there are many if not more prayers of thanks than their are for request.
I accept life being complete is also harsh and good, I simply accept God or the universe knows what is doing, but I just think it is natural to ask as well as answer, open close, beg and thank.
I have been known to beg, knowing full well while doing so I am not going to get what I ask for.
You may think this is even worse than expecting to be given what you ask for?
but what bugs me is those who say they truly trust God is real and end up doubting this faith when they do not get what they ask for.
So why have I begged if I have not expected anything from this beseechment?
Because I find it genuinely useful to analyse what it is I truly need and by the end of my entreaty I usually realise that what I ask for can only be gotten by me or as you say never rationally to be expected especially when you see the expression of that which you are begging.
Sometimes I find it very useful to be told "NO" you cant have or do that.
But I must state I quit begging 'God' for anything quite a few years back and this is not the reason I don't pray to God today, but this unasking or even unquestioning may also be because I am easily pleased and have very few material needs, and if it is a material I am in need of I will earn it, I learned the value of what constitutes as real NEED, I rarely ask for anything I don't need.
But then my needs are not the needs of others.
Just that I have very few.
But I do still wonder more what me begging the world or people accomplishes for me if I do not expect to be given?
Self fulfilling prophecy perhaps?

I mean this so don't think I am being sarcastic, but you must be highly conscious and wise to never ask for the world or yourself to give and get a little more than what you must always sound as if you are satisfied with.
If I didn't question it I would think you sound as if you are at peace with something I am yet to find or be made available for me.
But the same I could say about my self of you.

If you cant accept failure you may have earned your success.
If you cant accept failure you may make failure worth something.
Failure of course being worthless?

But the failure I speak of here is more your own than what is out of your control but then again maybe not?.

sometime sun wrote:

I think this might be closer to explaining my statement in the beginning where I said I believe everyone prays, because I am of the mind that everyone talks to them self, has communion with the self prays at least to them selves.

Krumple wrote:

Na, like i said what would the point be? I don't hope for stuff that I can not effect myself. If I can change things, then there is no need to pray, and if i can't change things then what use would praying be? To anyone who tells me that their prayers are always answered, i ask them then if some god is fulfilling your prayers why is he not preventing people from starving to death? Sure god will makes sure you don't lose your job, or that your next door neighbor will stop throwing his trash in your yard or maybe the girl in your world studies class will like you. Or that you will have enough money to pay your bills, but can't do something as simple as make sure a 3 year old doesn't die from starvation. I deplore any god that would favor some asshole asking for his favorite team to win the game, while ignoring something as important as hunger.

But don't you see asking or praying to of the self can and does effect yourself.
"If" you can change things, meaning you must find a way to know "If" you can, how would you know you could or not if you did not ask and process yourself and the question and need?
How do you know if you need something if at first you do not need it or ask for it? In the decision of knowing you need anything there is a process of asking or begging for it.
I think this is true.
We know we don't need something because we at the least ask ourselves if we need it?
(This is a bit of a leap, but I leave it in to see if you do anything with it)
I agree I would deplore a god who would favour the need to find car keys over the need of the starving.
I certainly don't think it is God answering these "prayers".
There is no need to deplore God for this Krumple God does not favour.
But God is still listening to us all, even though God willnot or cannot answer.
Only we can answer us.
As for God playing a larger roll in your life and fulfilments, this is all ordinance NEVER preference.
God hates and loves us all equally.
(making a point, I don't think God hates)

Krumple wrote:

It's such a slap in the face to all those who are suffering for no good reason while some rich white girl in the Midwest is saying she prayed for a check to pay for her college course and it showed up. And she's thanking Jesus for the money. I want to punch her in the face and take that check, buy some food and feed the starving children with it. Makes me sick how people talk about this complete nonsense sometimes.

Absolutely agree with you. Truth alert.
God does not even collect thanks if I look at it enough, and I would like to think judge someone dismissively for a bulls**t blessing.
If God even rates this kind of prayer or praise God would not be pleased with it and certainly not accept it.

(If God will ever judge anything positively or negatively?)

(Smile alert, I don't like the thought of punching dick head girls in the face but hearing you say it made me smile, mainly because I know you wouldn't either, or would you? hmmmmmmm? (smile))

Thank you Krumple, you are a reliable source of questions, preponderant ponderances and answers. You fulfil a need.

0 Replies

@sometime sun,

sometime sun wrote:

I believe everyone prays unless they actively force them selves to not do so.

So was wondering what your form of prayer is?
Who is it for?
Why you do it?

Please describe for me your form of prayer.
If you use any special words or addresses what they are?

And if you believe you do not pray please describe how you avoid it.

Hi Sun,

I Don't pray.
I don't believe I don't pray - I know I don't pray.

As for how I avoid it - I don't avoid it. It is like asking me how I avoid watching soap-operas. I don't! I just don't watch them because they are pointless drivel - The same as prayers, and yoga, and line-dancing, and collecting stamps, and living in america, and eating soya based products, and watching grass grow, and sunbathing, and listening to rap, and sandpapering my face.
None of these things do I avoid. I just don't do them.

Hope that helps, my friend.

xxx
Mark...

2 Replies

@mark noble,

mark noble wrote:

sometime sun wrote:

I believe everyone prays unless they actively force them selves to not do so.

So was wondering what your form of prayer is?
Who is it for?
Why you do it?

Please describe for me your form of prayer.
If you use any special words or addresses what they are?

And if you believe you do not pray please describe how you avoid it.

I Don't pray.
I don't believe I don't pray - I know I don't pray.

As for how I avoid it - I don't avoid it. It is like asking me how I avoid watching soap-operas. I don't! I just don't watch them because they are pointless drivel - The same as prayers, and yoga, and line-dancing, and collecting stamps, and living in america, and eating soya based products, and watching grass grow, and sunbathing, and listening to rap, and sandpapering my face.
None of these things do I avoid. I just don't do them.

Hope that helps, my friend.

xxx
Mark...

Steady on there with the line dancing. That looks like it could be fun... Wink

Hi Sun,

1 Reply

@ABYA,

One true prayer, desire for the correction of our egoism,
I had to say it out loud to help it sink in.
egoism 1Philos, the principle that self-interest is the basis of morality. 2 selfishness, 3 egotism.
Yes it is truth.

Is it still a "begging" asking for or of peace or strength?
not rather a "praising" offering for or of peace or strength?
Yes I see it as a tuning in of energy whether it be God energy or personal Humanist energy. But it does tune you into at least your own stance stature structure, and will demolish you or scaffold you if done true.

True to the self to make correction and correlation of the God for self.
True to the God to make correction or correlation of the self for God.

Even if you are wrong, the desire to be right is all it can take.

Yes God does not not listen, no such as a more or a less, no need for it to be a prayer, God hears you at your worst and best.

God hears no lies. God knows no liars.

When you address God you are fulfilling a very real desire to understand and shore yourself for yourself by yourself.

Yes the postage stamp of PLEASE GOD will not get it there first class or direct to Gods door.
PLEASE THANK GOD postage substantial or insubstantial is mostly always pointless, no fixed abode.
God knows neither you nor It can be lost.
PLEASE THANK ME postage substantial is mostly always delivered, home address.
PLEASE THANK ME postage insubstantial is mostly always lost, has no door.
To God No envelope is sealed, no mail is not sent, not a word or thought lost. So no stamp is ever needed.

Prayer You are talking to your self and your spirit because we miss so much,
first to self even if it helps to think someone is listening more intently the only one who is speaking or hearing harder is you.
What are those called who think every word they ever speak is heard by others?
Back to the egoist.
God may listen to all but you cant ever expect an answer from God ever.
God shows no agreement or disagreement ever in life ever.

In a sense I have just said that any thought or word ever spilt or mopped up is a prayer because God hears all all hears.
You cant not pray if you think prayer is God hearing you.
As said I think prayer is communion addressing the awareness God and or your self is hearing of and aware of you.
Sometimes we need just fully to open our mouths and ears to our self and need for humility or bravery.

The most "real" prayer is communicating with your self.

Thank you ABYA I have had a really good time with your post, it has been an absolute pleasure communicating with You and with myself.
All my best,
sometime sun

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@stevecook172001,

Hi Steve!

Ha ha ha!

Kindest of regards for laughter bringers.

Mark...

0 Replies

@Phoenix32890,

Quote:

My answers may be the most important to and for me, but I cannot make the claim that they are the most important to and for someone else.

Is this what you claim?
That because prayer may be useless or worse bad for you it is also useless for or bad for other people?

Phoenix32890 wrote:

I think that organized religion has the ability to control people to surpress their baser impulses. In the best possible world, all people would strive to behave honestly, kindly, and morally. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

Some baser impulses are best suppressed by any means necessary.
But you are right that some of the good gets lost with getting rid of some of the bad.
Unfortunately that is not the case, but it is still fortunate for some that they have religion to instil and extol honesty, kindness and morality.
Some times the best we are capable of being and doing must come at the price of some conscious conscience consciousness freedoms.
The good of religious people really does out weight the bad of religious people. I am 99% certain of this.
But then I do suppose that depends on what constitutes "bad religious", if you think all religions thinking is bad because it is religious and not free from orthodoxy or some such then I suppose you would be correct that there is more bad.
But I happen to think that the average religious person is usually a good person, even if "good" is a religious good it can still be a very real and present good.
It depends if you think religious thinking is just religious or if it can also be naturally or religiously moralistic.
Religion may have been that which first ever insisted we define and structure morality to be spread and used widely.
For it to be a mass morality may have meant it does not come at no cost to the person even if supporting the society.
Even if some religious morality is stinky and goes against what could easily be termed natural morality.
But you could easily say some natural morality is a little bit iffy as well, even if less delusional than some religious morality it is still a little delusional, even if not less natural or moral.
Most religious morality is still natural morality,
just as,
Most natural morality is still religious morality.

Phoenix32890 wrote:

There are many people who, like kids afraid of their dad wielding a strap, need to have the fear and control that religion provides. For the folks who need to be reined in, religion can serve a useful purpose for the rest of society.

Agreed.

Phoenix32890 wrote:

For others, the comfort of wish fulfillment through prayer can be very attractive.[/b]

Very attractive even though obviously wrong.
Can needed comfort that comes at the cost of no one but the comforted be termed wrong?

I agree with your post thank you for sharing yourself.
All my best,

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@sometime sun,

sometime sun wrote:

Please give a distinction between meditation and prayer, please so I know clearer where you sit and pose.

sometime sun,

Prayer is a conversation with a god and meditation is a conversation with yourself. Over the years, I have decided that position of mind is more important than position of body, so I long ago stopped meditating while sitting on a pillow in some excruciatingly painful position. Instead, I meditate while I'm hiking or running the trails around my home. As a native American once told me "Spirituality is simply a walk in the woods..."

I do not pray, because I have no reason to think, feel or believe that any gods exist. And if I did think they exist, I would not ask them for any favors or tell them what to do. Years ago, after my son was murdered, I attended prayer meetings at a local church. One night, after an hour of listening to those people telling god to go here, go there, do this, do that, I stood and told them they weren't smart enough to pray, that they should go into the real world and answer their own !@#$ prayers. I was asked to leave. I did.

In the first few months after my wife of 40 years died, I talked to her. But I didn't call it prayer. She couldn't hear me. She was dead. If anybody had heard me talking to her, they would have thought I was crazy, but I like to think that my "conversations" with her prevented me from losing my mind. As others have said, prayer isn't something I resist. I'm not crazy. So I don't do it.

--Bill

2 Replies

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