15
   

Do Animals Have Souls???

 
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2010 05:47 pm
Hi Thomas,
That is a very informative post. I thank you, sir.
It is a case of "if one then all" but in varying degrees.
Have a fantastic day, Thomas. Very helpful, indeed.
Mark...
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2010 06:51 pm
One thing which I would really like to encourage much deeper consideration on, and which I really both feel and reason cannot presently be over emphasized, is that of the linguistic model. As I have pointed out, and Thomas also, (and I may tend to harp on this, so . . . ) is that while we have received this notion, from ages past, which now has been very fairly and securely demonstrated to be unrealistic; by extension, far from the truth of our real, pragmatic world in which we live.

While we can of course retain the noun--the empirically accurate sense naturally being the referent--we will have to adopt a new verb. That, would without material doubt would be the copula 'be.' Life forms are souls; 'have' being inaccurate as it prescribes possession. I am a soul, my cats are souls, the friendly intelligent crow which shares their food is a soul...bless its little raven soul...(these birds are so cute in a sense).

Pemerson wrote:

What makes animals so extraordinary is they have no ego.

I argue that what we'll find, essentially, is that the notion of ego (of course having adjusted the Freudian model with the better understanding) is not quite so distinct a matter from the array of certain cerebral structures firing in connective loops. What we usually consider ego, thus, will is found to be an element of brain which animals of course have as well. In a twist of paradoxical fact, however, as can be understood through certain psychopathic spectrum syndromes, we can see that prefrontal connectivity--an especially tell-tale sign of the H. sapiens brain build's advantage--is what gives rise to the ability to sense this 'ego' build/state. We could thus present it, actually, as saying humans have egos while animals (other than a few primates, the dolphin, and a whale or two [maybe]) don't, simple because of having or not having that certain build of prefrontal cortex.

CalamityJane wrote:

Remember our friend Pavlov : dogs salivated when the bell was rang,
that's not an emotion, rather desire, sensation, belief - non-physical attributes we affiliate with being soulful.

We will have to keep in mind that with classical conditioning, what we are doing is exercising plasticity--in other words, long-term potentiation (LTP). This, most obviously, therefore, is very physical a matter--in the sense that certain neuromodulators and biochemicals are needed to produce the spines necessary for synaptic connectivity, and the neuron and support glial too, are of course actually lipids...which are real physical things.

Additionally, I am quite certain we'll find, most evidently, that animals to eat out of necessity--but we usually don't think of it in that way. The cognitive processes of sub-cortical which control feeding, reward, and homeostasis, are most usually never 'spot lighted' by top-down retrieval of the executive cortical maps (consciousness), so we tend to think of the activity that reaches that certain threshold (consciousness) as being 'willful' (and a portion of it is) but it is largely 'hardwired' in . . . thus out of reach to executive control.

Tastes, in the sense of likes and dislikes, again, we'll find are exactly elements of both genetic pressure (to a lesser degree), and classical conditioning-like effects from individual history in a given environment. This factor of personality, however, is very physical a thing.

And I too agree that we'll have to be a bit careful about anthropomorphizing, yet, as a number of recent studies with horses, dogs, and prairie volves have greatly suggested, what we are seeing is a matter of the continuum of brain build/state. In other words, what is at the level of brain build that we see in these species, is in the human too, but with more added (in the bigger build that evolved in H. sapiens).

So, all animals are souls (putting other life forms aside for the moment), and that of course, as Thomas has more correctly suggested, includes all of us human beings.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2010 07:03 pm
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:
Do Animals have souls???


Nope. Souls do not exist.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 09:50 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:

mark noble wrote:
Do Animals have souls???


Nope. Souls do not exist.

Hi Zetherin,
Why do we have a word for them then? What terminology should I use in it's place, in order to describe what, so it appears, all the prior posters seem to understand?
Thank you Zetherin. have a brilliant day, sir.
Mark...
mjb
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 12:07 am
Hello Mark,

Do you mean soul (as in moves on after this current state of being or life)?
William
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 05:37 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

Hi William,
Why are you present at the end of all my latest posts? Is your point of view more significant than mine, or has Kennethamy posessed you?
Have a great day William.
Mark...


Hello Mark. Please correct me if I am wrong but you asked for opinions, right?
I agreed with Jeb about the instinctive part. Do you feel threatened? When you speak of "soul" and that animal you are referring to as it relates to us as what a soul is you seem to put a misplaced regard. It's a qusetion only the animal can answer. So why ask the question of us?

I will say if they do have souls comparable to us, then why are they there? Who place that soul in such a mute creature? Perhaps they were human once and now they in a position of atonement? They don't say much we can understand do they and the ones that are tame truly don't like to be eaten. Perhaps that is because they devoured other souls like a master does to a slave once, and are now in the position of that beast of burden like so many humans are; only much more so?

As far as your your name calling, do you know what petulance means; or for that matter hubris? Tsk, tsk my friend. If you don't want opinions from some please be more specific as to just who you are addressing as to just who you want answers from. Since you are in heaven it seems you would know better, huh! For that matter why ask any questions if that is indeed where you are. You would surely know or is it you are just playing games? Now THAT is what Ken does.

William

William
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 05:58 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

mark noble wrote:

Hi William,
Why are you present at the end of all my latest posts? Is your point of view more significant than mine, or has Kennethamy posessed you?
Have a great day William.
Mark...


Hi William, I just found this comment of yours...

William Wrote:
(How could anyone kill such a loving, caring creature?)

A loving, caring EGOLESS creature, I see.
You are a hypocrite, sir
Thank you, and have a good day.
Mark...



Oh, in regard to this quote, do you know what "taking out of context" means? Call me a name and the say have a good day? Hummph! Yes, I would say you do have a bit of an ego Mark. Those "egoless" creatures as you call them do have an instinct and the animals you did not mention are instinctive and that instinct tells them to love us. So why kill them? They will die and perhaps become human too? Why speed up that process just to smell good?

William
William
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 06:02 am
@mjb,
mjb wrote:

Hello Mark,

Do you mean soul (as in moves on after this current state of being or life)?


Hello mjb, great comment!

William
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 06:30 am
@William,
Hi William,
I did not call you a name. I stated a fact relative to this post - You, on one hand choose to disassosciate a living thing from emotive qualities, and on the other, award them such. This is a hypocritical proposition.
Why wouldn't I wish you well? You took time to answer, you gave me your opinion. I may disagree with you on this matter, but I certainly value your investment in it.
Best wishes William.
Mark...
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 06:39 am
Energy cannot be destroyed, only changed so I believe in some sort of soul for humans and even if not soul for animals, an energy that lives on.

Do I think I'll see my animals when I die? Yes. Is it silly? Maybe, but there are far worse things to believe in.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 06:47 am
@William,
William wrote:

mark noble wrote:

Hi William,
Why are you present at the end of all my latest posts? Is your point of view more significant than mine, or has Kennethamy posessed you?
Have a great day William.
Mark...


Hello Mark. Please correct me if I am wrong but you asked for opinions, right?
I agreed with Jeb about the instinctive part. Do you feel threatened? When you speak of "soul" and that animal you are referring to as it relates to us as what a soul is you seem to put a misplaced regard. It's a qusetion only the animal can answer. So why ask the question of us?

I will say if they do have souls comparable to us, then why are they there? Who place that soul in such a mute creature? Perhaps they were human once and now they in a position of atonement? They don't say much we can understand do they and the ones that are tame truly don't like to be eaten. Perhaps that is because they devoured other souls like a master does to a slave once, and are now in the position of that beast of burden like so many humans are; only much more so?

As far as your your name calling, do you know what petulance means; or for that matter hubris? Tsk, tsk my friend. If you don't want opinions from some please be more specific as to just who you are addressing as to just who you want answers from. Since you are in heaven it seems you would know better, huh! For that matter why ask any questions if that is indeed where you are. You would surely know or is it you are just playing games? Now THAT is what Ken does.

William



Hi again William,
You said " See if you can hear what they say. You know go to that source."
What source? You are implying that I have a non-human perspective I tend to frequent, are you not? If I read this wrongly, please correct me.
I do not feel threatened (don't think I can feel threatened), because NO subject is taboo IMO, and the "soul" is not relevant to my belief status, unless it's an Omnisoul, that is?? How do you know an animal doesn't want to be eaten, when you are not one? You are dismissing my ability to percieve animal traits and instituting your own. This, again is a hypocritical proposition.
Anyway - I don't care - Let's get back to the point...
Do I take it that when you say things like "mute animals" You are proposing that human beings are seperate from them on matters of soul/spirit/essence?
Thank you William, best wishes.
Mark..

Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 07:05 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

Hi All,
Do Animals have souls???

Let me know your point of view, I have a special interest in this and would be grateful for any and all replies.
Thank you, all, and journey well.
Mark...


IF saints have souls
then some humans have souls. (allmost all saints are humans)

If some humans have souls,
then all humans have souls.

If all humans have souls,
then all animals have souls.

If all animals have souls,
then all life-forms have souls.

If all life-forms have souls,
therefore, then, all forms have souls.
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 07:41 am
Sure they do - thus the term "Soul Food"

Anything else? ~
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:10 am
@Khethil,
Jackofalltrades phil wrote:

IF saints have souls
then some humans have souls. (allmost all saints are humans)

If some humans have souls,
then all humans have souls.

If all humans have souls,
then all animals have souls.

If all animals have souls,
then all life-forms have souls.

If all life-forms have souls,
therefore, then, all forms have souls.


Hi Jack,
I like it, well done!
Thank you, and have a magnificent day.
Mark...

Khethil wrote:

Sure they do - thus the term "Soul Food"

Anything else? ~

Hi Khethil,
I'm just trying out the multiqoute thingy. Wish me luck!
Mark...
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:11 am
Yippee!!!!!!!!!!
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:16 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:
Yippee!!!!!!!!!!


Well grats... though I was hoping to see that someone appreciated my well-refined sense of humor Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:22 am
@mark noble,
mark noble wrote:

Zetherin wrote:

mark noble wrote:
Do Animals have souls???


Nope. Souls do not exist.

Hi Zetherin,
Why do we have a word for them then? What terminology should I use in it's place, in order to describe what, so it appears, all the prior posters seem to understand?
Thank you Zetherin. have a brilliant day, sir.
Mark...


We have words for many things which do not exist, like, for instance, unicorns. That we have a word for X, does not mean that what X refers to exists. And it is nothing fascinating that people are talking about something which does not exist, as if it exists. It happens all the time.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:27 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:

mark noble wrote:

Zetherin wrote:

mark noble wrote:
Do Animals have souls???


Nope. Souls do not exist.

Hi Zetherin,
Why do we have a word for them then? What terminology should I use in it's place, in order to describe what, so it appears, all the prior posters seem to understand?
Thank you Zetherin. have a brilliant day, sir.
Mark...


We have words for many things which do not exist, like, for instance, unicorns. That we have a word for X, does not mean that what X refers to exists.

Hi Zetherin,
I agree with you, by the way. But some people do believe in the existence of "Souls". And I'm interested in their opinions.
Thank you, Zetherin, and journey well, sir.
Mark...
Zetherin
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:29 am
@mark noble,
I am actually journeying mediocrely today, thank you for taking notice though.

Well, people believe all sorts of strange things. What can I say?
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:40 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Well, people believe all sorts of strange things. What can I say?

Hi again Zeth,
You can say "Why do you believe in such strange things?"
Mark...
0 Replies
 
 

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