0
   

usage cannot capture meaning.

 
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Mar, 2010 06:53 pm
@Ahab,
Ahab;142013 wrote:
No, I've never heard anyone say they were imagining a concept before now.


Well it's popular usage.

Quote:
Results 1 - 10 of about 11,600,000 for "imagine the concept of". (0.24 seconds) Search Results
Ahab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Mar, 2010 08:06 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;142034 wrote:
Well it's popular usage.


I don't care how many hits you can get on google.

I"m inquiring as to what you meant by it. You seem to think that imagining the concept dog show you have possession of that concept. I stil don't understand why you think that.

And I'm even more befuddled over your apparent reluctance to explain yourself.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Mar, 2010 08:28 pm
@Ahab,
Ahab;142042 wrote:
I don't care how many hits you can get on google.

I"m inquiring as to what you meant by it. You seem to think that imagining the concept dog show you have possession of that concept. I stil don't understand why you think that.

And I'm even more befuddled over your apparent reluctance to explain yourself.


I just wonder what is supposed to be the difference between, imagining a dog show, and imagining the concept, of a dog show. Except, of course, we never say the latter since it is not English. Imagine someone replying to the question, "What are you thinking about now?" by saying, "I am imagining the concept of a dog show". What could he possibly mean?
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Mar, 2010 08:47 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;142048 wrote:
I just wonder what is supposed to be the difference between, imagining a dog show, and imagining the concept, of a dog show. Except, of course, we never say the latter since it is not English. Imagine someone replying to the question, "What are you thinking about now?" by saying, "I am imagining the concept of a dog show". What could he possibly mean?
I'm with Night Ripper, on this. There are no Euclidean hypercubes but the concept is well defined, so a person imagining such a cube is imagining something that is irreducibly conceptual, they are imagining the concept when they describe their behaviour as imagining the cube. If a person has a concept of a dog show and they imagine the dog show they've conceived, then they're imagining the concept.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Mar, 2010 09:12 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;142048 wrote:
I just wonder what is supposed to be the difference between, imagining a dog show, and imagining the concept, of a dog show.


The concept of a dog show is not just a particular dog show. The concept of a dog show is parading dogs out, judging them etc.

I'm still trying to figure out how all this connects back to your original question.

kennethamy wrote:
Why should not concepts be real objects. They are not imaginary, are they?


Yes, concepts are imaginary. They exist only in human minds.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 12:32 am
@TuringEquivalent,
Maybe that is because meaning itself is not something that can easily be reduced to something lower. Meaning is intrinsic to anything we say - obviously - so it is one of those things that seems easy to understand, until you begin to think about what it...well...means. I am inclined to think that meaning is fundamental to intelligence - to be intelligent requires an inbuilt meaning generation and interpretation ability - otherwise you wouldn't be able to think. Which is why it is one of those things that is so hard to understand...you are using it to think with.

---------- Post added 03-22-2010 at 05:35 PM ----------

Night Ripper;142057 wrote:
Yes, concepts are imaginary. They exist only in human minds.


The thing is, they don't exist only in your or my mind. They exist in the collective imagination. Also, as the concept of Universal Grammar shows, there are certain ways that thinking and meaning tend to operate that are specific neither to the individual, nor to the culture.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:26 am
@TuringEquivalent,
Check out The Meaning of Meaning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:40 am
@jeeprs,
In my thread, there is question of in what sense can we give to the notion that meaning of an expression X is given by a rule. That is, how do we figure out the the meaning of X? could it possibly be given by a rule? If it can, then the paradox of ruling following occur.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:52 am
@TuringEquivalent,
well, no irony intended, but I don't know what you mean. I don't understand what you are saying. Sorry.
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 04:52 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;142120 wrote:
well, no irony intended, but I don't know what you mean. I don't understand what you are saying. Sorry.


There is no irony at all. You can read third reference gave in the op thread.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 05:56 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;142054 wrote:
. If a person has a concept of a dog show and they imagine the dog show they've conceived, then they're imagining the concept.


They are not just imagining the dog show, but their concept of the dog show? Could they ever imagine just the dog show, and not their concept of a dog show (whatever that means)? "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we fashion to speak philosophese" (Apologies to Sir Walter Scott).
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:03 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;142145 wrote:
They are not just imagining the dog show, but their concept of the dog show?
I've just explained this, in one way, Night Ripper has explained it in another, what is there to not understand? A person can remember a specific dog show of which they have first hand memories, if they do not have access to such memories, then the object of their imagination will be irreducibly conceptual, and this means that it will be a concept that they're imagining.
If you think that this derail is of interest, how about starting a dedicated thread and, on this thread, dealing with Night Ripper's attempt to bring you back to the point.
Ahab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:28 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;142118 wrote:
In my thread, there is question of in what sense can we give to the notion that meaning of an expression X is given by a rule. That is, how do we figure out the the meaning of X? could it possibly be given by a rule? If it can, then the paradox of ruling following occur.



We have the ability or capacity to follow rules. Looks like you are asking how we have that ability. That is an empiracal question that needs to be answered by science. You ain't going to find an answer for it on a philosophy board.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:28 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;142158 wrote:
I've just explained this, in one way, Night Ripper has explained it in another, what is there to not understand? A person can remember a specific dog show of which they have first hand memories, if they do not have access to such memories, then the object of their imagination will be irreducibly conceptual, and this means that it will be a concept that they're imagining.
If you think that this derail is of interest, how about starting a dedicated thread and, on this thread, dealing with Night Ripper's attempt to bring you back to the point.


So, to change the example, if I imagine The Fountain of Youth (which I have never seen) I must be imagining the concept of the Fountain of Youth? I suppose I will have to try to introspect again, and see whether you are right. I just did so. I cannot tell. I seem to be imagining just The Fountain of Youth. Am I wrong? (Ponce de Leon searched for The Fountain of Youth, or so it is said. But was he wrong? Was he really searching for the concept of The Fountain of Youth?).
Ahab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:36 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;142164 wrote:
So, to change the example, if I imagine The Fountain of Youth (which I have never seen) I must be imagining the concept of the Fountain of Youth? I suppose I will have to try to introspect again, and see whether you are right. I just did so. I cannot tell. I seem to be imagining just The Fountain of Youth. Am I wrong? (Ponce de Leon searched for The Fountain of Youth, or so it is said. But was he wrong? Was he really searching for the concept of The Fountain of Youth?).


He would need a conception or idea of the Fountain of Youth. That is, he would have to have some idea of what he was looking for. But he certainly, as you point out, was not looking for that idea.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 07:41 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;142164 wrote:
if I imagine The Fountain of Youth (which I have never seen) I must be imagining the concept of the Fountain of Youth? I suppose I will have to try to introspect again, and see whether you are right. I just did so. I cannot tell. I seem to be imagining just The Fountain of Youth.
What is the fountain of youth?
0 Replies
 
Ahab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 08:02 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;142054 wrote:
I'm with Night Ripper, on this. There are no Euclidean hypercubes but the concept is well defined, so a person imagining such a cube is imagining something that is irreducibly conceptual, they are imagining the concept when they describe their behaviour as imagining the cube.


I would have thought that all concepts are irreducibly conceptual.

In any case, simply becuause we conceive of an imaginary object doesn't mean that particular conception is imaginary, does it?
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 08:16 am
@Ahab,
Ahab;142177 wrote:
simply becuause we conceive of an imaginary object doesn't mean that particular conception is imaginary, does it?
I dont understand what you mean. What kind of concept isn't imagined?
Ahab
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 08:24 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;142179 wrote:
I dont understand what you mean. What kind of concept isn't imagined?


The word "imagine" is used in many different ways. Not everything we imagin is imaginary. If I imagine (form a mental image of) what my aunt looks like that doesn't mean that my aunt is an imaginary person!
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 08:26 am
@Ahab,
Ahab;142182 wrote:
The word "imagine" is used in many different ways. Not everything we imagin is imaginary. If I imagine (form a mental image of) what my aunt looks like that doesn't mean that my aunt is an imaginary person!
I acknowledged this distinction in post 32.
0 Replies
 
 

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