Clarify these religions please

Thanks. My degree's in Latin, so I can only comment on early Christianity, although being Christian and a Roman History teacher, I've studied a lot of Early Christianity. But building on your comments:

Christians were socially persecuted in the early days, but the formal persecution did not start until fifty years after the last apostle died. Everything previous to that were murders by local bureaucracies, not a formal declaration of any belief being illegal. The Romans were both superstitious and henotheistic, meaning they had nothing against anyone worshipping whatever he wanted, but they recognized that various gods had the ability to hurt them, and invoking such was illegal. This is evidenced by the great number of rich and influential people, from Christ's time on, who were Christians. This may have been where the Christians first got in trouble--since they'd claim credit for every famine and plague.

At least as far as my readings and schooling went, there is no historic evidence, other than Catholic oral tradition, that Constantine became a Christian. Constantine presided over the Council of Nice, and defined the Trinity and made other such crucial decisions from that pulpit, dressed entirely in the garb of Sol Invictus, with full face-paint. At least as far as we have record, he made whatever decisions minimized conflict, and was a famous supporter of not persecuting Christians. But that doesn't mean he was a card-carrying church-member.

When the sabbath was changed from Saturday to Sunday is up for debate. I think most consider verses like Acts 20:7 as an evidence that the Saturday/Sunday transition was one of the many reversals that happened at the atonement.

I agree with everything else...

Anyone who wants to fiddle with this stuff, the best book, and the easiest, and a wonder Sunday afternoon read, is "The Rise of Christianity: How the Obscure, Marginal, Jesus Movement Became the Dominant Religious Force in the Western World in a few Centuries" by Rodney Stark. Go get it on Amazon (If I could link, I'd link you there). Stark is the big gun of religious sociology. I can recommend many others, but they're less academic, tougher to read, and more emotionally charged...

"Only God can open hearts."

Clearly, you've never met an attractive member of the opposite sex!

(or an experienced heart surgeon.)

ummm, it wasn't till after guttenberg that the great unwashed could read scripture for themselves. Very few people would have ever owned the bible the majority could never have afforded the hand written copies. Unless a fairly wealthy citizen, chances were you could not read either.

mrcolj- Go to the webpage of the link that you want.

Highlight the address.

Right Click

Left click "copy"

Then go to your A2K response. On the top right of the response box, it says, "URL".

Left click url

A box will come up on the left.

Right click on the blank line.

Left click "paste", then OK.

Another box will come up. It will say "Webpage title"- Delete that, and type in the name that you want.- For instance, "Link to Book on Early Christianity" Type that in and click "ok"


Link to book on Early Christianity

I'm sorry, I thought they were all auto-censored on this board.

Link to Stark's The Rise of Christianity

mrcolj - What do you mean by "auto-censored"? Links advertising one's own website are not permitted. It is all spelled out in the A2K Terms of Use. As far a referencing a book, unless you wrote it, and are looking to advertise it, there is no problem. at the bottom of my post, you will see the word, "Terms". If you click on that, it will take you to the A2K Terms of Use, so you will know exactly what is permitted, and what isn't.

mrcolj ~ I'm happy that you have studied early christianity- you can keep me in line I've been studying on my own for about the past year, I think religious history is fascinating. I haven't yet studied Emporer Constantine in depth but this is what I've seen so far- mini time-line:
In 312 Constantine superficially converts to Christianity after a dream leads him to a military victory. He remains polytheistic until his death, even striking coins to honor Apollo.
313 Constantine issues the Edict of Milan, granting legal rights to all Christians and restoring their confiscated possessions.
321 Emperor Constantine declares Sunday to be a day of rest:
324 Constantine moves the capital to Constantinopal, leaving the bishop (pope) of Rome the most powerful man in Italy.
337 Christianity becomes the official state religion of Rome. Constantine finally receives baptism as a Christian (from heretical Arian priests) and dies on Pentecost.

I agree, who knows if he was ever really christian - he was probably just going 'through the motions' for face value I suppose. Anywayz, I'm going 2 take a look at your link --- feel free to refer me to any more good info you have

Phoenix......I luv your avator

~Kristin

I would add John Dominic Crosson's The Birth of Christianity:Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus , (San Francisco: Harper Publishing, 1999), as well as the ubiquitous The Formation of Christendom,(Princeton: 1987) by Judith Herrin, and Eisenmann's James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Key to Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls , (New York: Penguinn, 2002).

Most scholars agree that Constantine did not convert at this point, but for political reasons incresed toleration of Christians in Rome in thanks for their support politically in his struggles against his opponents. The deathbed conversion story makes the most sense.


Yup


Yup.



Or, the most likely target for the Germanic tribes who had been moving across Europe.


Nope, this was contained in the infamous "Donation of Constantine," and proven to be false. Christianity was recognized as one of several "official" cults, but by no means the only one.


Given the coterie of proto-orthodox clergy that surrounded him, I very much doubt Constantine would have been baptised Arian, but I don't know the answer for sure.

All this is also why I'm quick to say that Christianity didn't defeat Rome--that the Catholic church is the Roman Empire, without, in the end, a whole lot of changes.

hobitob, I'm familiar with those books; I just figured to list one that I thought would be easiest and most fun for those with little formal interest in these things. The Rise of Christianity has a whole bunch of neat tidbits, a lot of explicit parallels to modren churches and religious movements, and just enough history of primitive Christianity to have fun. I can recommend all kinds of bigger ones if anyone wants to start a more formal study in the future. I took my main class from John Hall & Jack Welch, two of the biggest in first-century history.

You are Jack Welch's Student?

Not the GE guy, the Roman Law professor, and I only took one semester from him, although my wife was one of his assistants for 4 years off and on (depending on his and her current project).

Jack Welch, if I recall, may have been the guy that discovered chiasmus in the scriptures.

Hobitbob- thank U for clearing that up & for posting the links

That's who I was talking about. Where are you teaching now, and what have you published..I want to read it!

So where do you know Jack Welch from?

Know? I don't , I've read some of his papers, and have heard mention of him. I'm doing medieval, but have an interest in the competing orthodoxies prior to Nicaea.