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The 'self' dilemma

 
 
amist
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 05:08 am
If man is a determined being whose brain fires off in an incredibly complex causal pattern to create what we know as consciousness, and has no free will, then the self simply becomes an observer and not an agent. No better than an animal in that instead he can perceive more complex thoughts than the animal can, but has no control over them.

If man has free will, then his existence precedes his essence and he is nothing, since he has no essence. In choosing anything for himself he becomes what he is not.

Not really sure if this is a dilemma or not, just thought it might spark some quality discussion.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,454 • Replies: 4
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Jebediah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 04:26 pm
@amist,
amist;147025 wrote:
If man is a determined being whose brain fires off in an incredibly complex causal pattern to create what we know as consciousness, and has no free will, then the self simply becomes an observer and not an agent. No better than an animal in that instead he can perceive more complex thoughts than the animal can, but has no control over them.


The difficulty here is that this kind of talk is loaded with implication that isn't brought to the surface. This results in people arguing back and forth about quantum mechanics and determinism.

Similarly: Does "yellow" exist or is that just a sensation in the brain caused by a certain wavelength of light?

It's all very well to say that the causal pattern is incredibly complex, but it seems much more accurate to me to say that we have free will, and that it can be described by neuroscience. Saying that is much simpler and more comprehensible, and thus more accurate. Since the issue is really how you define "free will" or "yellow" it makes sense to use the simpler, more accurate definition.
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HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 11:45 pm
@amist,
amist;147025 wrote:
If man is a determined being whose brain fires off in an incredibly complex causal pattern to create what we know as consciousness, and has no free will, then the self simply becomes an observer and not an agent. No better than an animal in that instead he can perceive more complex thoughts than the animal can, but has no control over them.

If man has free will, then his existence precedes his essence and he is nothing, since he has no essence. In choosing anything for himself he becomes what he is not.

Not really sure if this is a dilemma or not, just thought it might spark some quality discussion.
The best fit to the definition of "free will" is often associated with psycotic people, who selectivly adhere morals, ethics and laws.

Your premesis of defining various things in your thesis is extremely ridgid and narrow. It does not reflect any understanding of brain sience nor psycology.
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amist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 01:14 am
@amist,
Quote:
The best fit to the definition of "free will" is often associated with psycotic people, who selectivly adhere morals, ethics and laws.

Your premesis of defining various things in your thesis is extremely ridgid and narrow. It does not reflect any understanding of brain sience nor psycology.


Yeah, I didn't use a bunch of neuroscience jargon. Sue me. I'm not saying neuroscience wouldn't be able to describe what kind of things happen in the brain in the event that we have some kind of transcendental freedom.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 08:58 am
@amist,
amist;151253 wrote:
Yeah, I didn't use a bunch of neuroscience jargon. Sue me. I'm not saying neuroscience wouldn't be able to describe what kind of things happen in the brain in the event that we have some kind of transcendental freedom.
I was not to point fingers at your work, just trying to give hints to what your work lacked. :flowers:
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