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Why I am not an atheist

 
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 03:28 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;171150 wrote:
The thing is, at least for me, it's rare to have these sort of in-depth conversations in real life. So even though much of what you say is true, and while there can certainly be problems with this mode of communication, I can't really find a substitute. And that's why I've made a home here.


I agree. Not easy to talk philosophy in the real world.

---------- Post added 06-03-2010 at 04:29 PM ----------

Twirlip;171395 wrote:

Oh, there's no "might" about it, and there never was! I have never even imagined for one moment that I have a clear idea of what I or anyone else means by 'God'. It may possibly be the most confusing and maddening word in the language. (Any other candidates?)

"Truth" and "good"?

---------- Post added 06-03-2010 at 04:32 PM ----------

Twirlip;171395 wrote:

I think there is a fact of the matter as to whether there is a god or there are gods. But before we can know what the fact of the matter is, we have to be clear as to what we mean by what we are saying. I totally accept that very little of what I have written in this thread has been clear. But it is an awfully big subject. Who can hope to be clear about it at the very outset? Who can hope to have a reliable map of the territory in their hands before they have even journeyed through it? I can only hope to come up with something a little better than Here be dragons.


Is it clear that there must be or not be god(s)? It makes sense on the surface. And your next sentence seems like the natural concern. What can we mean by god(s)? I'm of the opinion that we simply cannot see above our own minds. Wouldn't god(s) have to manifest themselves through human sensation, emotion, concept? Perhaps the limits of human experience are god(s).Smile
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 04:31 pm
@Twirlip,
You're forgetting 'The Fall'. OK I am not turning evangelical on you here, I don't necessarily read this the same way as they do. But I have no doubt that this is a representation of a major factor in 'the limits of human experience' and kind of a boundary condition of being. This is why a Christian would say, there is no use trying to penetrate this by mere intellect. Your intellect is part of the problem, not part of the solution. The crucial change has to happen on the level of the heart, the seat of being, which they say is accepting Christ. In Buddhism, it is expressed differently and without the peculiarly Augustinian angst that Christianity has introduced to it (which equates The Fall with sexuality, which is a whole other minefield....)But it is very similar in some crucial respects, one being that no amount of discursive intellection will set you free from this condition...it has to happen on the level of 'heart'.
Jacques Maritain
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 04:40 pm
@Twirlip,
Well our intellects and rational capacities are gifts from God in order that we may know and understand him better. We were made in God's image after all.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 04:47 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;172643 wrote:
You're forgetting 'The Fall'. OK I am not turning evangelical on you here, I don't necessarily read this the same way as they do. But I have no doubt that this is a representation of a major factor in 'the limits of human experience' and kind of a boundary condition of being. This is why a Christian would say, there is no use trying to penetrate this by mere intellect. Your intellect is part of the problem, not part of the solution. The crucial change has to happen on the level of the heart, the seat of being, which they say is accepting Christ. In Buddhism, it is expressed differently and without the peculiarly Augustinian angst that Christianity has introduced to it (which equates The Fall with sexuality, which is a whole other minefield....)But it is very similar in some crucial respects, one being that no amount of discursive intellection will set you free from this condition...it has to happen on the level of 'heart'.


Sexuality? That's the fall? So god creates a man, and then god creates a dichotomy by creating a female? And since he supplied them reproductive organs, it was their sexuality that created the fall?

god: "Now that you both are fully equipped and anatomically correct in every way I don't want you to use those parts for anything."

So Adam and Eve go romping in the bushes since they are completely bored with their existence? God returns to find them making out behind the oak tree?

god: "What the hell are you doing? Didn't I say not to use those parts for anything?"

Adam: "It was all her fault, she talked me into it, said I would enjoy it."

Eve: "Yeah like you wouldn't stop staring at me."

god: "Enough, now that you discovered the one thing in which I completely hate and disgusts me, you will now have to endure pain, of death Adam and the pain of birth, Eve."


Sexual desire is chemically driven biological process. It is natural. Sure you can suppress it but it has been documented that doing so can create other psychological problems. Some people can transcend their sexuality though but most who are able to, had very little sexual desire to begin with which probably makes it less problematic. However; not everyone is the same.

Seems silly to have a biological tenancy that is considered "evil" if you enact it.
Jacques Maritain
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 04:54 pm
@Twirlip,
Ethical-moral matters are quite seperate from biological ones.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:05 pm
@Jacques Maritain,
Jacques Maritain;172650 wrote:
Well our intellects and rational capacities are gifts from God in order that we may know and understand him better. We were made in God's image after all.


spoken like a true scholastic! Welcome aboard Jacques, I didn't know catholics re-incarnated.:bigsmile:
0 Replies
 
Jacques Maritain
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:13 pm
@Twirlip,
Thanks for the welcome jeeprs. Wink
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:28 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;172655 wrote:

Seems silly to have a biological tenancy that is considered "evil" if you enact it.


Existence is the problem that religion has to solve, because existence itself is suffering. Why are we in a world full of suffering? Why must everything we cherish die? I am not going to even try to answer that question. But the idea that it is all related to sex is not at all daft.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:32 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;172687 wrote:
Existence is the problem that religion has to solve, because existence itself is suffering. Why are we in a world full of suffering? Why must everything we cherish die? I am not going to even try to answer that question. But the idea that it is all related to sex is not at all daft.


I don't see existence as so bleak. Suffering is only a point of view or an expectation of something to be different than it is. I don't see existence having any problem let alone religion being able to solve it even if there was.

If you accept all accounts without prejudice there is absolutely no room for suffering to arise.
0 Replies
 
Jacques Maritain
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:34 pm
@Twirlip,
Existence involves suffering, but suffering has its place in life. Out of ones suffering comes redemption and rebuilding. Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, as Nietzsche famously put it.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:37 pm
@Twirlip,
Didn't seem to do him a lot of good.
0 Replies
 
Jacques Maritain
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:38 pm
@Twirlip,
The point still stands.
Zachariah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:43 pm
@Jacques Maritain,
Believe in God, Belief in theory! As they say. Why not know, or at-least have the subtle burn in your heart or icy minds that think thoughts of gold(Mined from observation of reality)?
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:44 pm
@Twirlip,
that which doesn't kill you, eventually will.

Oh what a great optimistic pessimism. Heh
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:58 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;172643 wrote:
Your intellect is part of the problem, not part of the solution. The crucial change has to happen on the level of the heart, the seat of being, which they say is accepting Christ.


Yes, the heart. I used a cold word like "emotion" but emotion can run pretty high. Human limits are underestimated. I think the Incarnation myth is indeed the absolute truth in pictorial form. (Hegel)

Logos Incarnate. And the Flesh/Heart is as or more important than the Word. The Word is a seed. The Heart is the soil?

Blake interprets the Holy Ghost as representing Love/Desire.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:58 pm
@Twirlip,
Check out this interesting essay. It presents a very interesting account of the origins of religion: The Violence of Oneness.

As regards suffering and deliverance, everything that has been said in the last few posts simply glosses over it. I don't want to get too heavy about it, and it is a very heavy topic. But I don't think Nietzsche presented any kind of way out at all, he just wallowed in it, and enjoyed the spectacle.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 05:59 pm
@Jacques Maritain,
Jacques Maritain;172650 wrote:
Well our intellects and rational capacities are gifts from God in order that we may know and understand him better. We were made in God's image after all.


Respectfully, God is also made in ours. For me, the Incarnation is symbolic of God-in-Man and Man-in-God.
Jacques Maritain
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 06:02 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;172702 wrote:
Respectfully, God is also made in ours. For me, the Incarnation is symbolic of God-in-Man and Man-in-God.

Well that touches upon issues of God-manhood, which I'm not prepared to get into at this moment.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 06:04 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;172701 wrote:

But I don't think Nietzsche presented any kind of way out at all, he just wallowed in it, and enjoyed the spectacle.


I think Nietzsche was all over the place. The man did brilliantly describe "mystical" experiences. He was a spirited man, but got tangled up in his cord sometimes. I still say he was a sort of Protestant. His problem was a fear of compassion, I think. Smile
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2010 06:05 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;172687 wrote:
Existence is the problem that religion has to solve, because existence itself is suffering. Why are we in a world full of suffering? Why must everything we cherish die? I am not going to even try to answer that question. But the idea that it is all related to sex is not at all daft.
I think you have an exaggerated notion of christianity's depth. Basically it's a doomsday cult, and the New Testament includes examples of typical cult strategies, like the creation of financial and emotional dependence. Control of sexual behaviour is another typical strategy.
 

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