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If Jesus were born in the 20th Century, how would this have changed Christianity?

 
 
Kroni
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 09:08 am
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;108178 wrote:


I'm not a bible/religious scholar in any way, shape, or form, but don't some people say that Jesus is God?


Yeah, he is part of the holy trinity, the son. He is all god but also all man. It's complicated.

But anyways, back to the topic...I think we're past the point of executing religious outspeakers, at least in America. Sure, some nutter might decide to pop a bullet into his head, but I doubt most people would even take him seriously. We have become very skeptical. A great deal of us do not even believe in God.
Presumably Christianity would not exist, as the savior would not have arrived until now. We would probably be Jewish or something. I can see Jesus's arrival in modern times going two ways...A: Nobody believes him and as time goes on he will die and fall into obscurity. or B: Mankind would witness his miracles and make video records of it, preserving the evidence of Christ and creating a nearly universal consensus of faith.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 09:56 am
@Kroni,
Kroni;109809 wrote:
Yeah, he is part of the holy trinity, the son. He is all god but also all man. It's complicated.

But anyways, back to the topic...I think we're past the point of executing religious outspeakers, at least in America. Sure, some nutter might decide to pop a bullet into his head, but I doubt most people would even take him seriously. We have become very skeptical. A great deal of us do not even believe in God.
Presumably Christianity would not exist, as the savior would not have arrived until now. We would probably be Jewish or something. I can see Jesus's arrival in modern times going two ways...A: Nobody believes him and as time goes on he will die and fall into obscurity. or B: Mankind would witness his miracles and make video records of it, preserving the evidence of Christ and creating a nearly universal consensus of faith.
I think Jesus was on the crap-list of the Pharisees in the same way Martin Luther King was on the FBI's watch list. The governing body isn't interested in the difference between King and a Neo-Nazi Militia leader... they both represent something dangerous.. access to the latent volitility of public distress.

As for Jesus being a manifestation of a triune God, that language was part of the idealogical backdrop of the Jesus-episode of the 1st century. I think the OP asks what language would clothe a 21st century episode, which I think we still haven't addressed.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 02:22 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;108178 wrote:
I'm not a bible/religious scholar in any way, shape, or form, but don't some people say that Jesus is God?


I have a book on my wishlist about this very point (OK haven't read it yet but looks very fascinating)

When Jesus Became God, Richard E. Rubinstein

From the jacket copy:

Quote:
The Gospel stories of Jesus' life, death and resurrection are familiar tales in Western literature. Yet, the Gospel narratives do not themselves pose or answer the theological question of Jesus' divinity. None of the disciples become engaged in disputations about whether Jesus is fully God or fully human. It took almost 300 years for these questions to be raised in such a serious way that Christianity was changed forever.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 08:58 pm
@Arjuna,
[QUOTE=Arjuna;109823] As for Jesus being a manifestation of a triune God, that language was part of the idealogical backdrop of the Jesus-episode of the 1st century. I think the OP asks what language would clothe a 21st century episode, which I think we still haven't addressed. [/QUOTE] Well, Jesus did not have much immediate impact on Roman Imperialism (the domination system of the day) during his lifetime. His life barely got a footnote in Josephus History of the Jews during Roman times.

Jesus did not become god until the 3rd or 4th century. The Christian phenomenon was more the impact of an idea whose time had come. The monotheism of the Jews was a powerful idea from the axial age. The closed character of Jewish society and Jewish culture kept monotheism form spreading earlier. The demands of Jewish ritual and Jewish laws and observances prevented their form of the religion from gaining popular appeal. Paul by declaring Jewish observance unnecessary and actively spreading the much simplified message of Jesus as opposed to Judaism spread monotheism and the message of love not law to an eager populace. I guess my point is that the importance and impact of Jesus was not in his personage but in his ideas in a receptive age.

Many people preached Indian independence before Gandhi. Events and personalities coincide to produce effects. Gandhi 30 yrs earlier or 20 yrs later might not have been successful. Martin Luther King in the 1920's would have been just another lost voice. When the time is right, and a charismatic leader, bringing the right message for the time appears then things might happen. A spiritual charismatic such as Jesus in the 21st century might not even get a footnote or an interview.

Islam another monotheistic religion from the axial age with billions of adherents implies to me that it is monotheism as a replacement for polytheism and paganism that was the winning message. The time was right. The result was inevitable. Individuals were just the means to an end not the cause itself. Ideas are more powerful than the individuals who come to represent them?
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 09:43 pm
@prothero,
prothero;110005 wrote:
Well, Jesus did not have much immediate impact on Roman Imperialism (the domination system of the day) during his lifetime. His life barely got a footnote in Josephus History of the Jews during Roman times.

Jesus did not become god until the 3rd or 4th century. The Christian phenomenon was more the impact of an idea whose time had come. The monotheism of the Jews was a powerful idea from the axial age. The closed character of Jewish society and Jewish culture kept monotheism form spreading earlier. The demands of Jewish ritual and Jewish laws and observances prevented their form of the religion from gaining popular appeal. Paul by declaring Jewish observance unnecessary and actively spreading the much simplified message of Jesus as opposed to Judaism spread monotheism and the message of love not law to an eager populace. I guess my point is that the importance and impact of Jesus was not in his personage but in his ideas in a receptive age.

Many people preached Indian independence before Gandhi. Events and personalities coincide to produce effects. Gandhi 30 yrs earlier or 20 yrs later might not have been successful. Martin Luther King in the 1920's would have been just another lost voice. When the time is right, and a charismatic leader, bringing the right message for the time appears then things might happen. A spiritual charismatic such as Jesus in the 21st century might not even get a footnote or an interview.

Islam another monotheistic religion from the axial age with billions of adherents implies to me that it is monotheism as a replacement for polytheism and paganism that was the winning message. The time was right. The result was inevitable. Individuals were just the means to an end not the cause itself. Ideas are more powerful than the individuals who come to represent them?
I know what you're saying. (although I think the divinity thing happened earlier than you're thinking) I'd like to hear your thoughts on the meaning of monotheism... (was it a model for our present ego?)

I think a significant aspect of Christianity was the way it addressed victimization, which is tied to its apocolyptic character.

Do you think if Jesus hadn't come along, it would have been somebody else? There's debate about the importance of "great men" vs the times creating memorable figures.

I know the logical challenges to answering the OP. Logic can't stop me. Smile
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 03:37 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;109804 wrote:
This is something I've been thinking about in the last few years. Christianity carries a poignant contradiction. Any organization will reinforce its identity, demanding unity. It will demand that people invest their energy into a role that functions as part of the mechanism of the group. The Church, or all Christian organizations, is a vehicle transmitting the message of Jesus. Without it, that message wouldn't be available to become something precious in the lives of people over centuries throughout the world. The shadow is that Jesus was a rule breaker. He was not about being a gear in a machine. He berated the Church of his day. His attitude was clear, that the Church is artificial, and not sacred. The pope is not the pontifex maximus. That link to God is within you. Jesus was a protestant (small p). If all Christians were like Jesus, there would be no Christianity.
Im not sure about that, breaking the rules because you think they are wrong doesnt means you will always break the rules and defend and more liberal approach. Just look at Cuba: Fidel took down the old dictadorship and estabilished his own... so clearly his problem was not with the form of government, but with the government itself.

Arjuna;109804 wrote:

The boundary between me and not-me is a trick of the Lord of Illusion. I appear out of the one membrane of our universe. No one looks down on me from the 11th dimension. In that waving sea of storming universes rippling and colliding, ever begetting new space and time, there is no sentiment. It is a blind god. Insanity and murder go unsung. The Lord of Illusion is the whisper of Sophia in the ear of her poor blind child. Maybe this would be part of 25th century Christianity, as it was in the 2nd century.
The universe sucks sometimes. Well, at least be sure there is a nice, solid bondary between you and not-you, otherwise you wouldnt be thinking now =)

Kroni;109809 wrote:
Yeah, he is part of the holy trinity, the son. He is all god but also all man. It's complicated.
I would say "contradictory" =)

Arjuna;110027 wrote:

I know the logical challenges to answering the OP. Logic can't stop me. Smile
Isnt skipping logic leaving the realm of philosophy? =)
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 05:52 pm
@Alexandergreat3,
There was Dostoyevsky's "The Grand Inquisitor" where Christ returns and the Church kills him again and for many of the same reasons. Because the distributive justice and compassion of Jesus conflicts with the power and dominion of the church.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 06:00 pm
@Alexandergreat3,
I've always thought the notion of a Christian nation was tricky. Can a pacifistic nation survive? Instead we see nations with their practical Old Testament skull-busting aspect as a sort of shell in which the yolk of their higher ideas/ideals can be enjoyed/experienced. D. H. Lawrence tackles these contradictions in his Apocalypse (great great book!). Christ has strange parallels with Satan. Both rebelling against the Power and suffering for it. Do we not live between the poles of individualism and a sense that all are one, joined by a common love? It's the Satan-Christ continuum.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 06:15 pm
@Alexandergreat3,
Christ, by definition, is an outsider - 'not of this world' where 'world' is 'realm of existence'. Perhaps the attempt to domesticate Him is the source of much religious iniquity. It is different in India, because the idea of the Sanyasin is understood - 'one from the forest'. In Indian culture, the enlightened are recognised as outsiders, separate from the normal conventions, and the forest life and renunciation are understood.

The West doesn't have that.

The idea that if Christ returned, he would be persecuted again, and for the same reasons, is grimly true, I am afraid.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 06:47 pm
@jeeprs,
manored;110652 wrote:
The universe sucks sometimes. Well, at least be sure there is a nice, solid bondary between you and not-you, otherwise you wouldnt be thinking now =)

Isnt skipping logic leaving the realm of philosophy? =)
Yea.. I can't escape the lie. If I call unity the truth, I'm saying the truth is unknowable. Poetry and religion do a fair amount of "skipping logic," but remain intelligible. Skipping logic is part of human experience. Logic is always there waiting for us when we get back.

Reconstructo;110698 wrote:
D. H. Lawrence tackles these contradictions in his Apocalypse (great great book!). Christ has strange parallels with Satan. Both rebelling against the Power and suffering for it. Do we not live between the poles of individualism and a sense that all are one, joined by a common love? It's the Satan-Christ continuum.
Two images come to mind: the Antichrist, and the Son of the Devil. Both were themes in the middle ages. Medieval stories of the Son of the Devil and fascinating explorations of the nature of individuality.

jeeprs;110702 wrote:
Christ, by definition, is an outsider - 'not of this world' where 'world' is 'realm of existence'. Perhaps the attempt to domesticate Him is the source of much religious iniquity. It is different in India, because the idea of the Sanyasin is understood - 'one from the forest'. In Indian culture, the enlightened are recognised as outsiders, separate from the normal conventions, and the forest life and renunciation are understood.

The West doesn't have that.

The idea that if Christ returned, he would be persecuted again, and for the same reasons, is grimly true, I am afraid.
Yea.. Jesus would be an example of "one from the desert." In the Israelite perspective, the desert life was pure and closer to God. I think the archetype of the holy person always involves being an outsider. From that position, the holy person can serve the role of spiritual guide.

A Russian version of it is the holy fool.
manored
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 11:41 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;110714 wrote:
Yea.. I can't escape the lie. If I call unity the truth, I'm saying the truth is unknowable. Poetry and religion do a fair amount of "skipping logic," but remain intelligible. Skipping logic is part of human experience. Logic is always there waiting for us when we get back.
I agree, but the forum here is about philosopy, not religion or art, so dont be skipping logic, you! =)
0 Replies
 
 

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