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God vs. Nature?

 
 
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 12:47 pm
First, to set aside a clear definition of "God". This is not easy to do, as I am sure we can find many characteristics of what is usually describe as "God". So to keep it simple, let us agree "God" is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscience.
Second, is the task I'll need help on. Definition of nature. No so much the question of, "What is nature?", but rather how nature exists as we know it.
1) The difference of "unnatural" and "supernatural"
2) The possibility of nature existing in a way we do not understand. (example: attempting to explain color to a blind man)
I suppose we might find issue in the world of impossibilities. That is to say, "Nature dictates possibility". We might conclude that what exists outside of nature is only impossible because of our understanding of nature it cannot possibly exist in the way we describe it. Or we might conclude that nature allows for limited possibilities, and in the manner described nature could not allow for this possibility to exist.
I would also suppose we would find that nature may not be the only dictator of possibility, but is itself subservient to a higher nature. Or perhaps that nature is subjective to change however permanent or temporary to a superseding agent.
Or could we conclude that perhaps nature as we understand it is only a portion of a whole? Perhaps our empirical findings of what nature is and how it exists is limited to a fraction?
If this is the case, would it be logical to only accept the nature our empirical belief forming mechanisms can interpret?
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prothero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2009 09:06 pm
@Lost2ize,
Why did you phrase it as God versus Nature?
For Spinoza God and nature are the same- pantheism.
For many modern theologians, god is immanent in nature and works through nature and process- panentheism?
God may relate to nature the way your mind relates to your body?
There is no necessary duality in viewing god and viewing nature?
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Egosum
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2009 09:47 pm
@Lost2ize,
Super means above. Natural, the concept, applies to anything under the ultimate law of the universe. To be supernatural--which really is a very good definition or concept of god--is to ignore the universe's ultimate laws. God, supernatural, defies logic which naturally exists in the universe. God's concept, supernatural, is omnipotent (pantheists believe he is omnipresent) and omniscience.

To be unnatural is to be the opposite of natural while still pertaining to some laws. Jesus, for an example, resurrected. Impossible under nature's law, but he we was not omnipotent or "above" nature in every way. Something like divine intervention made him unnatural.

No clue about that second part. I'm not that experienced.
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Lost2ize
 
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Reply Fri 20 Nov, 2009 11:42 am
@Lost2ize,
Prothero:

Perhaps... I had always been led to believe that we must accept supernaturalism to accept God.

If God is indeed supernatural and nature therefore, subservient to God then God is completely natural. I must admit however, for God to be the creator of nature, nature is certainly hostile to the possibility of God. As if God made nature possible, then nature made God impossible.

Most people would find the idea of simply casting off the ails of life, even death, by the belief that beseeching the creator of nature that makes those ails possible to exist to remove them... quite silly given its possibility of happening. If a blind man believes he is not blind, he is then a fool. If a blind man believes he is not blind because he believes he is not blind, then he is crazy.

If it is in this manner God demonstrates his existence and rule over nature, to remove a blind man's blindness because of his belief God can do so, then I wonder why so rare a phenomena occurs?

Egosum:

I think we have the same belief of naturalism. I wonder then what you believe. These "ultimate laws of nature"... seem to be even more a unrealistic belief to hold. These "laws" seem to change often and even in some cases in total contradiction to the previous law that it replaced. There also seem to be many exceptions to these "laws". Perhaps a better name... "The subjective sensory perceptions to the guidelines of normal"?

Would you mind if I asked, if you believe God created the universe?
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