Can God commit suicide?

God has committed suicide every single time the world has shat on an innocent person who believed and hoped in him.

Either that or he didn't exist to begin with.

Hello ElAleph and welcome to the forum. The scenario you illustrate is a bit nonsensical, but understandable why you would make such a assumption. As we relate to those interpretations that profess what "god" is is also a bit "out there" IMO. In that we associate what we define as "omnipotent" in no way can reach an understanding of that (god) which is the core of the universe. Whether it "exists" as it relates to what we define as "existence" cannot be known; so whether or not god can "not exist" such as what we define as "suicide" is also unknowable. Making it an exercise in futility. IMO.

William

---------- Post added 07-07-2009 at 06:56 PM ----------



SHAT? Now that's innovative. Ha. But I do agree with your summation.

William

I agree, simply labeling God as 'omnipotent' by no means permits us to reach an understanding of Him as the core of the universe (as you put it). Indeed, to do so is detrimental as it is anthropomorphising our conception of God.

Yet, surely you must agree that in order for God to exercise the sort of power to influence the whole universe (as is generally accepted by religious believers), one necessary precondition for this would be to ascribe a property of omnipotence?



True, but in saying this, you are acknowledging that although, it is unknowable, it is logically possible for God not to exist if He is constrained to our linear view of time and existence. So, although we can never know what kind of "existence" He occupies, His "non-existence" (by means of suicide) must be treated as a serious logical possibility?

Thanks for your response ElAleph. Let's examine the statement you made I highlighted. As we define "order", "exercise", "power" and "influence" it connotes out "understanding of omnipotence" as it relates to our current level of understanding. As I have said in many of my posts (and I am assuming you are not aware of all those), that core of the universe cannot simply just not exist. It has always been here and will always, IMO. "All powerful", which is what "omnipotence" means leads us to believe it is "controlling" and in the far reaches of understanding something that is truly "all knowing" there is no need to "exert" power. All knowing would mean "all understanding" up until this "instant".

Considering, from our calculations anyway, the universe is 14 billion years old, we, the sentient human being, are but mere embryos as to the overall macro/micro understanding of it all, yet we, at least most of us, "feel" the workings of it in that we are a part of that universal construct. It is that "harmony" in which the universe "operates" we are alien to which leads us to believe we are "separate" from it. It it didn't exist or cease to exist, so would we cease to exist, in a micro-second. IMO.

What further confuses the matter is the "alpha/omega" postulation in that it (god) is aware of the beginning and the end, which I have an extremely hard time of understanding as far as what "infinity" means, that precludes that a future is "pre-conceived" and if that were the case, as some religious intrepretations believe, then our total lack of harmony would be just cause enough to discontinue our being, which an "all knowing" entity couldn't do in that it would be at the same time "all understanding'.

As we exist in this chaos, it is understandabe why we would arrive at that feeling of which we can only conclude in our rationalization of it all, that we are 'separate" from that "god". IMO, that is the biggest error in our naive interpretations. We, due to our immaturity, created this chaos and we can end it as we align with that in which we are all created from as we recognize the "oneness" of it all in which we are DEFINITELY a part.

I hoped this help a little, though I do realize this is my viewpoint and of course you are surely entitled to yours. :a-ok:

William

Omnipitently suicidal. Remarkable. What says God continues to exist. It was the creator of all that exists and we now live in the product of Their omnipotence. To put the point in context. If you are of the way to be murderous and are unlucky enought to be so , in let's say Texas. The death penalty is your salvation so to speak. In a state where there is no death penalty, jail term is set to the rest of your life. However if you hold on long enough and get to join the army and go off to war, you only have to dodge the opposition bullets to fulfill your destiny.

Wicked, don't you think but just like a Danoz Direct sales pitch, there is more. Only for the faithfull that believe God is more than just the Creator, they are also the Divine, then here is your dilemna. For Them to be the Divine, they would have to live as Human to be in such of the grace, so to be the Judge. Upon Their arrival in one place or another, They will reach that divinity, to be the Ruler of the soul. That is judgement day.

God the Human. There is where God can be suicidal. Would it be an act of passion, a form of art or could They simply not cope and suicide was a valid option. Does this, rule Them out of the Catholic Church or like this God is the Chuch willing to understand in the light of true belief.

Finally, we come to the end of Gods Creativity. There is heaven and earth, the universe and all that live and dwell within it. Would any be so stupid to ponder a ridiculous scenario, when a question like how do I the believer, in a or the God, become so divine as to be the creator of more than my simple life. May I build a planet amongst the stars, one that will team with life that thrills in existence like we did or assist with those that between us could do an entire galaxy. Maybe you would be happy creating the rock of which holds such high regard, remembering that some space mining guild will come along and destroy it for fill or a naval fleet will use it for target practice, leaving it in tatters that God themselves or any that replace him find it a waste of their time consulting.

Well, the bible do say that god is alive, so if he's alive, he should also be able to die. So why not make His own death a suicide. But I wonder, what would happen to the world then?

I have never bought the idea that "god can do anything bar create a paradox" is actually a way round the issue, for limitation means "lacking an ability" and that is exactly what this entails, so, logically, if there is stuff that is impossible, then nothing can be omnipotent. However, I could certainly believe that god is perfectly capable of doing all things that are "possible". WHich is why I have always thought that if god exists he isn't actually supernatural at but is merely a life form that is ridiculously more advanced than we are...but that kind of goes against more common conceptual ideas of course thus I don't expect to actually be agreed with on that one. It also creates a problem for the idea of god being a creator of the universe for how can something of the universe exist out of the universe and thus create the universe...Unless! God created the universe at the exact same moment that the universe created him, so we have an awsome bit of bicausality there. This is assuming a being like god actually exists in the first place, which I doubt (appologies if you do, I would prefer not to go to hell for that).

dawoel, you are clearly illustrating "paradoxical" thinking. Ha. No offense meant, I assure you. When we effort to understand "extremes", expecially those we cannot comprehend, we get into trouble every time. Occam's Razor and it simplest definition;
"Of several acceptable explanations for a phenomenon, the simplest is preferable, provided that it takes all circumstances into account"; we tend to make things complicated. It seems to me you are in the "twilight zone" of trying to reason what we have been 'conditioned' think and what is. Not a comfortable place to be by any means. Many experience the confusion in equating the two; what we are "taught" and what is the "truth". It is conflicting, to say the least. Here is a post that I think will help in your understanding as to how and what I think based on my perception.

http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/lounge/general-discussion/338-do-you-believe-god-20.html#post27117

William

If you are new, then be welcome, your idea is definitely brilliant. First of all i totally agree, that god's omnipotence would end with such an event.
However some scientists (beginning with Laplace) might argue that anything that happens is determined. Any atom you move and anything you try to change is supposed to be a logical consequence of the first moment , so their point of view.
Personally i have a different opinion, but regardless if this idea is true, one could argue that anything that happens is a result of god's will which is so strong and omnipresent as a result of his creation that his omnipotence does not even require god's presence.
In fact you could even go further and say that his will being present in everything makes him being present, because god does not have to be seen as a person. One could even say that the universe is just a transcription of god, just like sound can be transformed into the surface of a record and retransformed to sound again.
This however would take a universe in which humans can not be held responsible for anything, because nothing could exist that is not written in 'The Book'.
If we assume there is a free will and things are not determined, i would say your question actually proofs the concept of omnipotence itself a paradox.
So congratulations!
:a-ok:

I'm new here, so bear with me. :-)
Personally, I believe that God is omnipotent because he 1) he knows absolutely EVERYTHING that has ever happened, and 2) he is omniscient, and therefore able to learn everything new that happens as it happens, allowing him to remain all-knowing even though he created the universe with physical properties such as the uncertainty principle and free will, which prevent him from just predicting the "outcome" of the universe at the moment he creates it.
So, then, if he knows everything, all the decisions he makes should be to further the increase of knowledge in the universe, allowing him to increase his own knowledge, because he simply remained the same for all of eternity, why bother existing?
And if his purpose in existence is to collect new knowledge and, in a sense, "expand" himself, it becomes a question not of whether God can commit suicide, but why he would ever want to, as it would defeat the purpose of his existence, and, furthermore, end it.
So in answer to the OP's question, I would think God would certainly have the means to do such a thing, but not the motive.

And another thing, if God possesses absolute knowledge of everything, then couldn't he be said to "define" the universe in a sense; were this "definition" gone from the universe and absolute knowledge and perfection made unattainable, what would be the purpose of our existence?

I always wonder where from people know these things.
People keep saying things like god doesn't punish for this or that, but he does punish this and that...
What makes you so convienced about your picture? Is it that all the people around you give you confirmation?
You know: In the bible there is no such precise picture like what you are drawing above.

I see no reason to think God cannot kill himself. Consider the Biblical account that has helped shape our western conception of God. Clearly he is able to surrender or suspend his power. So then why can't God suspend his immortality and die? Seems totally reasonable. What you are left with though is a question of God's morality and will. Would He do it and does He desire to do it, both of which require either an established faith tradition or a lot of speculation to discuss.

Well, I base my assumptions on the belief that there has to be some sort of all-knowing/omnipotent being that created the universe. I believe that there would have to be some sort of all-knowing being whose absolute knowledge would "define" reality, because if no such definition existed, we'd be left with the idea that perception is reality, as there would be no absolute, 100% accurate knowledge anywhere in the universe. And if perception defined reality, then how would we improve ourselves or the world around us? There wouldn't be any "absolute good", like God, to work towards. I don't know what meaning existence would have in such a universe, so I assume that such a universe doesn't exist, as I believe that the universe, like everything in it, has to have a reason to exist for it to exist. My beliefs aren't based entirely on the bible, and I know it's probably a logical fallacy or something, but I choose to believe in the model of the universe that gives discernable purpose to existence, and the model I briefly described just makes the most sense to me.