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A free will is necessarily amoral

 
 
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2009 10:00 am
[CENTER]A free will is necessarily amoral. A determined
will is necessarily moral and non-accountable[/CENTER]

If human beings are truly in possession of a free will that is capable of making choices that are not compelled by genetic and/or environmental causes, and this free will therefore makes such choices for no reason other than to simply exercise its agency, such a free will must be necessarily amoral.

We can test the validity of this proposition by examining it within the context of a specific moral example; the choice of whether or not to steal. A person's free will that has chosen to not steal has, by definition, made this choice completely independent of any cause or reason other than to simply exercise its power to act. However, if the person's free will has chosen without having been compelled by moral considerations, the free will has made its choice amorally. The freely willed choice to not steal cannot be considered a moral choice because it did not rely on moral precepts as its basis or reason. Indeed, a free will that does not base any of its moral choices on moral precepts is necessarily amoral

One might here object that the person's free will could have considered some moral precepts relevant to stealing, and then freely and independently decided to not steal. However, this prospect is incoherent, or logically impossible; a will that chooses to not steal because it considers stealing wrong has based its choice on a moral precept, and this moral precept becomes the cause of the choice. Once a will makes a choice for a moral reason, indeed for any reason, the choice is immediately and completely rendered deterministic, and we can no longer deem the will that made the choice a free will.

Expressed in greater detail, once we have established any reason for a choice, in this case the moral aversion to stealing, we have demonstrated that the choice was made by a determined rather than a free will, and that the choice is therefore subject to a reverse causal chain that stretches back to a cause completely outside of the control of that will. In our example, the person's choice to not steal was caused by a moral aversion to stealing. To explain this moral aversion, we can surmise one of many possible reverse causal chains, such as the following: The person's moral aversion to stealing was caused by having learned from his parents the immorality of stealing. Since this learning was not freely willed or chosen by the person, his choice to not steal was therefore also not freely chosen. The cause of the person's not stealing is the person's parents' morality.

Conversely, if human beings are truly in possession of a determined will whose choices are compelled by genetic and/or environmental causes, and this will makes either moral or immoral choices, such a will must be necessarily moral in the sense that its choices are made according to, and reflect, either moral or immoral reasons. Such a determined will is, however, non-accountable, being neither credit- nor blameworthy for its choices, as explained generally by standard deterministic theory and its principle of cause and effect, and specifically by the above example demonstrating the deterministic nature of a will having chosen to not steal.

The only other case left to examine as we consider a will's morality and accountability is the possibility that humans possess an indetermined will, or a will that makes its choices according to an indeterministic process. An indetermined will must necessarily make its choices indeterministically, or randomly, and, as such, cannot be deemed to make those choices based on moral precepts. Thus an indetermined will cannot make moral decisions, and is, like a free will, categorically amoral.
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richrf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2009 10:57 am
@innocent phil,
Hi innocent,

Thanks for your post.

innocent;69121 wrote:
A person's free will that has chosen to not steal has, by definition, made this choice completely independent of any cause or reason other than to simply exercise its power to act.


This may or may not be true. A person can also take into account all that the person is aware of. On top of this, a person may be influenced by factors that they are not aware of.

Quote:
One might here object that the person's free will could have considered some moral precepts relevant to stealing, and then freely and independently decided to not steal. However, this prospect is incoherent, or logically impossible; a will that chooses to not steal because it considers stealing wrong has based its choice on a moral precept, and this moral precept becomes the cause of the choice. Once a will makes a choice for a moral reason, indeed for any reason, the choice is immediately and completely rendered deterministic, and we can no longer deem the will that made the choice a free will.


Life does not have to be A or B as Aristotle and Mr. Spock try to make it.

1) A person may not think it is stealing while the other person who is being stolen from has a different point of view. From whose perspective are we talking?

2) A person may not have any morality. Are you speaking of your morality or that other person's.

3) A choice may be made on other factors besides moral precepts - such as not wanting to get a punch in the nose, because it hurts.

So many things to consider, and so little time to do it. Smile

Rich
innocent phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2009 01:51 pm
@richrf,
Quote:
Originally Posted by innocent http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/PHBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif
A person's free will that has chosen to not steal has, by definition, made this choice completely independent of any cause or reason other than to simply exercise its power to act.

richrf;69139 wrote:
This may or may not be true. A person can also take into account all that the person is aware of. On top of this, a person may be influenced by factors that they are not aware of. Rich

Hi Rich,

My point is that a free will, by definition, chooses independently of anything outside of itself. If it doesn't choose based on a moral precept, it is choosing amorally.
richrf;69139 wrote:

1) A person may not think it is stealing while the other person who is being stolen from has a different point of view. From whose perspective are we talking?Rich

We're addressing the objective perspective of asserting that the person's will that has chosen to not steal has made this choice amorally.
richrf;69139 wrote:

2) A person may not have any morality. Are you speaking of your morality or that other person's.Rich

No; I'm just addressing the morality, or actually lack there of, of a free will's choice.
richrf;69139 wrote:

3) A choice may be made on other factors besides moral precepts - such as not wanting to get a punch in the nose, because it hurts.Rich

True; a simple desire would be such a factor. However, then the will that made that choice would be a determined rather than a free will.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2009 04:30 pm
@innocent phil,
innocent;69195 wrote:
Quote:
My point is that a free will, by definition, chooses independently of anything outside of itself.


I am not sure there is a consensus on the definition of Free Will. Some people may use a definition just to make it easier to disprove a notion or to prove a notion. But I think Free Will is murky. For me, people have a Will that is Free to move in different directions in life. However, the direction one moves, is definitely influenced by all of the other Free Wills that surround that individual Free Will. So, we can choose a direction, but not an outcome.

Quote:
If it doesn't choose based on a moral precept, it is choosing amorally.


It may choose on a moral concept, but the morals may be different than what you would expect. For example, for one person, stealing may be perfectly moral and acceptable in order to feed his/her family.

Quote:
We're addressing the objective perspective of asserting that the person's will that has chosen to not steal has made this choice amorally.


When a point of view is chosen, then I feel it is no longer objective, but is subjective from a particular framework. For example, there are people in Israel who consider new settlements in Palestine as being perfectly moral - an act religious necessity. While others may consider this just stealing land. There is no objective viewpoint here - just different perspectives depending upon one's point of view.

Quote:
True; a simple desire would be such a factor. However, then the will that made that choice would be a determined rather than a free will.


This I don't quite follow. If it is a point that you would like me to understand, I will need more explanation. Thanks.

Rich
innocent phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2009 10:12 pm
@richrf,
Free will has historically meant that we humans are free to choose our actions independently of any and all influences. For example, if one person's parents lead him to believe that stealing is wrong, and a second parents lead him to believe that stealing is right, if the second person steals, free will demands that we blame him for something that was obviously not his fault.

By definition, if one is making a choice with their free will, they are making it without being compelled by any influence, such as a moral precept. If that is the case, that free will must have made its choice amorally, regardless of any differences different people may have over what is right and what is wrong.

If a free will chooses without being compelled by any influence, it is basically choosing what it arbitrarily desires for no other reason than that it desires to choose the way it does.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2009 10:19 pm
@innocent phil,
innocent;69338 wrote:
Free will has historically meant that we humans are free to choose our actions independently of any and all influences.


Hi innocent,

I think you can define it to this extreme if you wish, but there is no need to. If you glance at Wikipedia (by no means the final arbiter of any discussion), you will find many ways of looking at concept of Free Will, and I am sure there are many, many more not described in the article.

Free will - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Rich
innocent phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2009 11:29 pm
@richrf,
richrf;69341 wrote:
Hi innocent,

I think you can define it to this extreme if you wish, but there is no need to. If you glance at Wikipedia (by no means the final arbiter of any discussion), you will find many ways of looking at concept of Free Will, and I am sure there are many, many more not described in the article.

Free will - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Rich

The essence of the determinism vs. free will question regards responsibility. The definition of free will I am using can be better defined by the example I presented: If one person's parents lead him to believe that stealing is wrong, and a second parents lead him to believe that stealing is right, if the second person steals, free will demands that we blame him for something that was obviously not his fault.

Do you believe the second person should be blamed for having stolen?
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jun, 2009 12:13 am
@innocent phil,
innocent;69360 wrote:
The essence of the determinism vs. free will question regards responsibility. The definition of free will I am using can be better defined by the example I presented: If one person's parents lead him to believe that stealing is wrong, and a second parents lead him to believe that stealing is right, if the second person steals, free will demands that we blame him for something that was obviously not his fault.

Do you believe the second person should be blamed for having stolen?


Hi innocent,

There are completely different ways to view Life, than the perspective that you propose. I do not want to turn everything inside out, in a short paragraph, but as I beginning to understand Eastern philosophical perspective, you might want to view this very cheerful little video that I put on my blog:

The Evolving Universe | My Meaning of Life and Philosophy

If Life is a circle, and every path travels a different path on this circle, there are an infinite ways to look at life. Maybe you will come up with your own very unique way of understanding mistakes, blame, learning, etc.

For me, life is a Game, an Experiment, a Way to Explore that what we are. Some people do come up with some very crazy ways to explore and experience Life. My job, is to keep a nice distance from the wildest ones out there. They might steal something from me. Smile

Rich
innocent phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Jun, 2009 03:43 am
@richrf,
richrf;69369 wrote:
Hi innocent,

There are completely different ways to view Life, than the perspective that you propose. I do not want to turn everything inside out, in a short paragraph, but as I beginning to understand Eastern philosophical perspective, you might want to view this very cheerful little video that I put on my blog:

The Evolving Universe | My Meaning of Life and Philosophy

If Life is a circle, and every path travels a different path on this circle, there are an infinite ways to look at life. Maybe you will come up with your own very unique way of understanding mistakes, blame, learning, etc.

For me, life is a Game, an Experiment, a Way to Explore that what we are. Some people do come up with some very crazy ways to explore and experience Life. My job, is to keep a nice distance from the wildest ones out there. They might steal something from me. Smile

Rich

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the link, and for the positive message. From 2001 until about 2006 I studied and promoted happiness, so I understand your desire to maintain and defend the joy and richness of life. And I certainly don't want to steal that from you or anyone. For example, I believe in an afterlife, and I believe that we all go to a kind of blissful heaven. I have no way of proving this, let alone providing any but the most anecdotal evidence that this belief is true. I simply believe it because it's the best possibility I see for the afterlife, and I'd prefer to see what's unknowable in the most positive light.

But, I advocate for an understanding of a determined will not to steal people's joy, or to simply defend a point of view. I have what I consider to be a very compassionate reason. Do you ever come across a news story about a man who was wrongly convicted of some crime, and spent decades in prison before he was ultimately discovered to be innocent and released? Well, if you have, I would imagine that you feel a great deal of compassion for that person, and you probably feel that a huge injustice was done him.

The unfortunate corollary to the belief in free will is that every single person who is now or has ever been in jail or prison is really as innocent as those individuals you hear about in the news. The tragedy of the belief in free will is that we attribute blame to people who were compelled to act as they did, and then often punish them for decades as a result. I'm not advocating we abandon our criminal justice system, because we do have to protect ourselves and each other from those who commit crimes. But if we adopted the truthful position that our wills are completely determined by factors completely out of our control, we might redesign a criminal justice system that is not so unfairly cruel.

There are, of course, other ways the belief in free will harms us in our daily lives. How many times have we blamed a friend for what was ultimately not in his power to control? I've got to read B.F. Skinner's book Walden Two, where he describes a society built on deterministic principles that are more compassionate than the free will principles our current societies are based on.

But, again, I want to emphasise that happiness is very, very important and that if believing in free will is necessary for that happiness, then that is very understandable. As a hopeful alternative, I intellectually abandoned the idea of free will over a decade ago, and I have at the same time become a very, very happy person. I am now in the process of trying to integrate that intellectual understanding that our wills are determined into my everyday life, and I am beginning to find that it brings me joy.

Rather than taking pride in my accomplishments, I feel grateful. Rather than becoming angry with my friends when they do something I feel is wrong or hurtful, I become angry at the fate that caused them to act that way. I'm very far from fully integrating that perspective, but I am already beginning to see a positive change in my life from it.

I believe we can all live much happier lives through the truth of determinism than the belief in free will. But I guess I'll have to explain and defend how this is possible, and I can't at all blame anyone who doesn't accept this perspective (as if they had a free will :sarcastic:)

I think I'm gonna start thinking about starting some new threads comparing a determined will perspective with a free will perspective.

Stay happy!Smile
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