Which is more free a fish in a bowl or in a river?

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I was walking by a river at 1 am and saw a bunch of fish flooding together by a bridge. The flocked together and pushing each other aside tried to bet to what I imagine was food. Seeing this made me think about freedom of fish. Here is the Argument

If Freedom is defined as lack of restrictions which is more free?
A. a fish in a bowl has the aquarium as its only restriction in life
B. a fish in the river has constant need of food and fear of predators as its restriction on life

After a lot of thought on this question I came up to a park by the river and saw a guy practicing on his guitar. I knew him and asked him which was more free a fish in an aquarium or in the river, it took him about 10 seconds to answer. He said it all depended on the fish! Laughing

What do u think?

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@AHHAX,

AHHAX;69289 wrote:

What do u think?

Hi there,

Cute question.

I would favor the river, since the fish has more space and more variables (other fish plants, etc.) and therefore more choices in the space it wishes to occupy and what it will do in that space. A fish bowl can get pretty boring after a while, unless a piranha is thrown in.

Rich

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@richrf,

richrf;69324 wrote:

Hi there,

Cute question.

I would favor the river, since the fish has more space and more variables (other fish plants, etc.) and therefore more choices in the space it wishes to occupy and what it will do in that space. A fish bowl can get pretty boring after a while, unless a piranha is thrown in.

Rich

If freedom is defined as lack of restrictions then wouldnt theoreticly the fish in the bowl be more free because it has only one restriction in life, the bawl, while the fish in the river are constantly fighting for survival and are restricted by constant need for food and avoiding predators? How does one measure degrees of freedom?

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@AHHAX,

AHHAX;69745 wrote:

If freedom is defined as lack of restrictions then wouldnt theoreticly the fish in the bowl be more free because it has only one restriction in life, the bawl, while the fish in the river are constantly fighting for survival and are restricted by constant need for food and avoiding predators? How does one measure degrees of freedom?

Rather than less restriction, I would say more choice, giving the river the edge. Let my fish go! Smile

Rich

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@richrf,

Fine I free your fish, but if it gets eaten by a shark or starves to death dont blame me! While the aquarium fish might enjoy good food and pocker games with other fish.

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@AHHAX,

AHHAX;69789 wrote:

Fine I free your fish, but if it gets eaten by a shark or starves to death dont blame me! While the aquarium fish might enjoy good food and pocker games with other fish.

Hi,

I won't blame you. But I am glad it went for the good cause, the subsistence of another life form. I hope it didn't mind too much.

Rich

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@AHHAX,

I think freedom is being able to do whatever you like, so I think the river fish is more free. The only thing the the fish in bowl can do is swim around. It can't even decide what to eat:shocked:. And isn't that a restriction of life? But, on the other hand, I don't think the fish will mind.

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@Lily,

The fish in those circumstances would by its nature prefer to be free in the river.It does not select its habitat by conscious thought but by its instincts.Try putting a fish bowl in a river and see how many choose to live in it.Security does not define its desires.

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@Lily,

Lily;70566 wrote:

I think freedom is being able to do whatever you like, so I think the river fish is more free. The only thing the the fish in bowl can do is swim around. It can't even decide what to eat:shocked:. And isn't that a restriction of life? But, on the other hand, I don't think the fish will mind.

Hi Lily,

I'm with you, but I'm not sure if the fish mind being in fish bowl. They look like they want to swim out of it, but I can't be sure. Smile

Rich

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@AHHAX,

Most of the fish I have met that live in bowls, do not last very long at all.

I got 2 new fish.
They dissappeared.
So I shouted at my cat. "Did you eat my fish?"

And she brought me the 2 dead fish and dropped them at my feet.
I don't think they were as tasty
as they looked.

0 Replies

@AHHAX,

AHHAX;69745 wrote:

If freedom is defined as lack of restrictions then wouldnt theoreticly the fish in the bowl be more free because it has only one restriction in life, the bawl, while the fish in the river are constantly fighting for survival and are restricted by constant need for food and avoiding predators? How does one measure degrees of freedom?

Hi there,

Yes, if freedom were to be defined that way.

I define it as choice in the amount of movement and choice - e.g. maximizing space/time. In sleep, we have the maximum of choice, there is no space/time, and we sure take advantage of it! Smile

Rich

---------- Post added at 11:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

Poseidon;70631 wrote:

Most of the fish I have met that live in bowls, do not last very long at all.

I got 2 new fish.
They dissappeared.
So I shouted at my cat. "Did you eat my fish?"

And she brought me the 2 dead fish and dropped them at my feet.
I don't think they were as tasty
as they looked.

lol. Too much freedom for the cat.

Rich

0 Replies

@AHHAX,

What if the bowl was huge? Like a large aquarium that was shapped like a donut, with pumps that created a current and the fish dont even realize that its an aquarium.

The wish in the river can swim anywhere they want only for a very limited time because they have to worry about being eaten and eating.

So if someone is has restrictions placed on them, but dont realize it at all, are they free? If it makes them happy and their desires are fulfilled without having to worry about restrictions such as fear for life and gathering food are they free?

1 Reply

@AHHAX,

AHHAX;72007 wrote:

What if the bowl was huge? Like a large aquarium that was shapped like a donut, with pumps that created a current and the fish dont even realize that its an aquarium.

The wish in the river can swim anywhere they want only for a very limited time because they have to worry about being eaten and eating.

So if someone is has restrictions placed on them, but dont realize it at all, are they free? If it makes them happy and their desires are fulfilled without having to worry about restrictions such as fear for life and gathering food are they free?

Hi,

I don't want to speak for fish, so I will have to rely on my own human feelings.

Whenever I venture out of my home, I am putting myself at greater risk than when I am sitting in my bedroom. I could have food delivered to me, but I venture out anyway. I choose to take these risks. Why? Because, in my soul, I feel like exploring and and willing to take risks in order to explore. The bedroom is not enough for me.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

For Example: You go out of your appartment and go around the city, you sometimes go to the next city over and it looks a little a lot like your city. The sceenery changes. If you think you are actually traveling around and free while in reality you are in a huge holigraphic aquarium the size of your city. Are u free?

If there are restrictions that are placed on humans that humans are not aware of are they free?

1 Reply

@AHHAX,

AHHAX;72011 wrote:

For Example: You go out of your appartment and go around the city, you sometimes go to the next city over and it looks a little a lot like your city. The sceenery changes. If you think you are actually traveling around and free while in reality you are in a huge holigraphic aquarium the size of your city. Are u free?

If there are restrictions that are placed on humans that humans are not aware of are they free?

Hi,

These are great ideas and questions.

To answer them completely, from my perspective, would put us way of track, so I would like to avoid that. However, suffice to say the following:

1) I believe that humans have a natural feeling for wanting to wander around the earth. I do not think it is natural for humans to be in a bedroom. To explain why I have this perspective would require me to go into other ideas and experiences I have, but this is what I currently think.

2) I think that fish have a natural feeling for being in large waters - much larger than a fish bowl, and because of this have a feeling for exploring in their natural habitat. This is somewhat supported by zoological studies which show that animals in zoos behave much differently than they do in the wild.

3) Beyond this, I think that we all live under certain constraints. Fish in water, humans on land. But within these constraints, we have an inclination to explore and maybe even break through these constraints.

Hope I have been able to present my point of view so that it is understandable.

Rich

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Which is more free a fish in a bowl or in a river?

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