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Face value.

 
 
Elmud
 
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 06:16 pm
Sometimes we take people or things at face value only to be slapped in the face later. Sadly, maybe it has come to a point, for me anyway, that the only thing I can take at face value would be my mom.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 589 • Replies: 18
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Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 06:44 pm
@Elmud,
What happened, mate?
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2009 08:55 pm
@Zetherin,
I was thinking about my kids Zeth. Thinking about when they were toddlers. So trusting. So open to everyone and everything. I have three little girls. I remember, they had this quality of innocence about them. They accepted things as they seemed to be.

So, when I see one of them, get cheated and exploited, and I see them start to develop a hardness towards people and things, becoming jaded, they have lost something that they may never regain again. That quality of innocence. That ability to trust.

This is the hard part of being a parent. Knowing that your children, sooner or later, will have to adapt to a world where things are not always as they seem. and they lose their quality of innocence. They have to grow up. And, sometimes its hard.

On a positive note, sometimes our first impressions are wrong, and we find out that things every now and then are better than they seem. Anyway, the point was that more than not, we cannot take things at face value anymore.
xris
 
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Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 05:53 am
@Elmud,
I tried to teach my kids to look for the better side of whom they meet because its too easy to find their faults.Innocence could be called ignorance, replace it with wonder and then they never loose that freshness of youth.As the song goes " always look on the bright side of life buboombuboom"
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 05:59 am
@xris,
Wow, talking about "nailing" an issue. There's not a feeling you've expressed that I can't completely empathize with and respect.

It's tough to think of my boys; back during the time you describe. The innocence, unabashed love and adoration; then later seeing them get knocked around by the world's blind fist.

I'm with ya; all the way
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 06:17 am
@Khethil,
No sentimental nonsense, you dont want your children to grow into an understanding equal?.Enjoy their innocence while it lasts but do you really want it to last forever, think of the consequences the alternatives.Many parents of disabled children would give their all to see their child be their equal.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 08:36 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
No sentimental nonsense, you dont want your children to grow into an understanding equal?.Enjoy their innocence while it lasts but do you really want it to last forever, think of the consequences the alternatives.Many parents of disabled children would give their all to see their child be their equal.


To say that one treasures, appreciates or fondly remembers their children's innocence speaks not one iota to the worth and necessity of becoming strong through "taking their knocks".

Can one not both lament the loss of innocence while simultaneously understanding its inevitability?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 01:10 pm
@Khethil,
Lament those moments by all means but you talk of cheated, exploited, knocked that does not take their innocence away. I can remember trying to stop my two young sons from inflicting these horrors on each other but they still maintained their innocence. Innocence is a gentle delightful ignorance, i can remember my daughter telling me how spring had come when we ventured into the woods " someones decorated Daddy" spring for me will always look like someones just decorated.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 02:18 pm
@Elmud,
I suppose I don't quite understand the significance of this innocence, as I was never a parent. Had I been a parent, I would have most likely grown sentimental value to this state of life.

To me, it's nothing amazing, spectacular, or heartwarming. Quite literally, the human's brain hasn't developed yet, and thus one is bound to hear ignorant (usually stupid) responses. The adoration and unabashed love you see is from a mind that simply does not have the capacity to reason with the feelings and thoughts presented (yet).

It fascinates me our more intelligent folk treasure the bliss that is that of an immature mind. Isn't the treasure the developed mind, the mind that can reason as you and I can, on so many different levels? If I want to seek unabashed love from a creature, I'd look no further than my puppy. He has fur anyway.

Once again, I can understand where you guys are coming from: These are just my thoughts (a non-parent).
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 02:30 pm
@Zetherin,
Youthful bliss brings out the the frivolity and the mirth; the light-headed and the light-hearted. Do they have to be so proportional??
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 03:08 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
I suppose I don't quite understand the significance of this innocence, as I was never a parent. Had I been a parent, I would have most likely grown sentimental value to this state of life.

To me, it's nothing amazing, spectacular, or heartwarming. Quite literally, the human's brain hasn't developed yet, and thus one is bound to hear ignorant (usually stupid) responses. The adoration and unabashed love you see is from a mind that simply does not have the capacity to reason with the feelings and thoughts presented (yet).

It fascinates me our more intelligent folk treasure the bliss that is that of an immature mind. Isn't the treasure the developed mind, the mind that can reason as you and I can, on so many different levels? If I want to seek unabashed love from a creature, I'd look no further than my puppy. He has fur anyway.

Once again, I can understand where you guys are coming from: These are just my thoughts (a non-parent).

You would have to see the look on their faces after they have been hurt Zeth. The look alone is enough. By the way, I think you would make a good parent.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2009 04:02 pm
@Elmud,
Elmud wrote:
You would have to see the look on their faces after they have been hurt Zeth. The look alone is enough. By the way, I think you would make a good parent.


Elmund, I thank you for your kind words, but I'm still lost in my own cognitive dissonance! To have another beside me I'd have to raise, give advice to, care for, when I'm already lost as it is... I don't think I could manage!

People have told me raising a child is one of the most amazing, joyous experiences in life. So, I'm of course giving it consideration Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 05:33 am
@xris,
Hey Xris,

xris wrote:
... but you talk of cheated, exploited, knocked that does not take their innocence away...


Interesting idea. Does the experience of harsh, 'unjust', troublesome or brutality remove someone's innocence? What a good question... On first blush - and given how I see our context of the term innocence - I'd say "yes it does". But how I'm seeing innocence to be discussed here might be something like: That state that is open and trusting to all; not quite on-guard, knowing nothing of the pain and brutality that can befall anyone, at any time.

But depending on how you see it, I could easily conceive of it being quite contrary.

Good point, thanks
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 07:18 am
@Khethil,
Hi khethil ,I was thinking of my children's age of innocence and i can recall when they realised father xmas was pretend and so was the tooth fairy.That for me was so sad, they had lost that magic of innocence. I did replace it with other magic as best i could , walking in the woods and warning them to look out for indians hiding in the trees.I think play is part of their innocence and at times we all return in some small way to that time of carefree innocence by indulging children with their games.Im going to have to stop now because im getting all sentimental.Thanks xris
Icon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 09:01 am
@Elmud,
As parents, there is a responsibility to prepare your children for the world and all that it holds. This can be difficult because you must prepare them for both the good and the bad without leaning too far to either side.

Still, the loss of innocence is not the loss of magic nor is it a terrible thing. Negative emotions are only possible when they have known positive emotions. This means that their life has been good. There is power in negative emotions which can be harnessed for growth in a positive light. Lessons learned from negative emotions can teach them to look for certain things and be wary.

On a side note, we cannot be children forever. We must eventually become hardened to the world but this is not to say that we must be negative and suspiscious. Simply cautious. If we do not grow, we will never be all that we can be.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 10:34 am
@Icon,
Perhaps one of the best outcomes of this growing/realization process is to keep that wonder, that enthusiasm and trust while somehow reconciling the horror that is a part of humanity.

In thinking about this thread, for some reason, I find myself recalling one of the works I'm reading now, Paradise Lost by Milton. I'm really enjoying it's rich metaphor-laden prose; the fall through "the knowledge of good and evil".

Good stuff guys
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 03:30 pm
@Elmud,
Adaptation. Some would say, it is a natural process. But, who's to say what is and is not natural? To adapt to cruelty and exploitation. To be "forced" to adapt. Hard knocks. The reality of the way things are. Teach them to be wary. Teach them to be cautious. Yeah. We have to do this. To protect them. "don't talk to strangers". Yeah. It is the reality of things. But is it natural? Naw. It is an unnatural adaptation. To not be able to take things at face value anymore. Have a good weekend.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Mar, 2009 04:54 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Hi khethil ,I was thinking of my children's age of innocence and i can recall when they realised father xmas was pretend and so was the tooth fairy.That for me was so sad, they had lost that magic of innocence. I did replace it with other magic as best i could , walking in the woods and warning them to look out for indians hiding in the trees.I think play is part of their innocence and at times we all return in some small way to that time of carefree innocence by indulging children with their games.Im going to have to stop now because im getting all sentimental.Thanks xris


Well no wonder they didn't believe "father xmas" for long, his name is SANTA CLAUS! We stretch the belief of SANTA CLAUS as far as we can take it -- a cousin of mine is 18 and still believes. And that took hard, quality work, my friend.

Tisk, tisk, you UKers must learn how to perpetuate delusion.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Mar, 2009 04:10 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Well no wonder they didn't believe "father xmas" for long, his name is SANTA CLAUS! We stretch the belief of SANTA CLAUS as far as we can take it -- a cousin of mine is 18 and still believes. And that took hard, quality work, my friend.

Tisk, tisk, you UKers must learn how to perpetuate delusion.
HO HO HO well thank you Santas little helper.
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