Neuron development

One month following birth?

The encephalon is one of the first things to start development while the baby is in the womb, by day 50 from conception, the pineal gland (part of the limbic system)has formed. These glands produce some of our neurotransmitters, so there are neurons present before day 50, otherwise there wouldn't be anypoint in having neurotransmitters.

Just a couple of months after the child has been concieved they actually swim and begin to gain an awareness of their surroundings. It is shown that they know where "things are" in the womb and if there are twins they play & interact. These are all signs of a functioning brain. I did research this a couple of years ago. I forget when it starts but neurons are present and functioning fairly soon. The cerebellum is actually done developing by the time a child turns 3years old

This does not mean that memory is functioning in the same way we think of it as soon as neurons form. There are areas in the brain that need to develop first ,memory is housed in an area of the brain, but since a fetus has awareness of it surroundings, its safe to say that they have a functioning memory before they are born.

First, thanks for fielding this, NeOH. I've found very few people who have studied this to an appreciable degree.

I have a hard time directly equating awareness of one's surroundings with memory. Certainly, to maintain an internal map of an area, one would require memory, but general awareness using one's senses isn't the same as that.

Does a fetus in the womb create the type of reinforced neuron connections that we would describe as memory in the same way we would describe the memory of an adult?

Does the creation of an organ constitute an active use of the organ, or does the body create the area of the brain in which neural connections and synapses will be created simply in preparation for that use?

Ultimately, when does memory (as we typically define it) begin?

It as actually very important that neurons interact with other neurons as much as possible during development, I'm sure there is no time that they would be made to be latent. After some time after (and during) develpoment, certain synapses are favored, others arent, but the idea is that as many synapses happen as possible to find the most favorable.

No the baby doesnt sit in the womb thinking, to his or herself, "I remember that time I was down at the cervix...", thoughts that contain such complex ideas about time space dimension, sense of self etc cant be expected for a couple of years after birth; yet they show signs of having a self awareness ie touching certain areas of themselves or touching certain areas of someone else in the case of twins in order to instigate play. Some babies have been shown to purposely cut themselves off of oxygen (squeezing the chord)presumably because they like the effect of passing out. Its pretty incredible what goes on in there.

Here is the thing though. So these babies have a self awareness at pretty early stages of development. During those early days they are also pretty dexterious creatures, they swim around and do stuff. Eventually they grow out of room and sit there, stretching or turning around ocaisionally, but basicly just sitting and growing and then eventually they turn into the little wailing blobs of flesh that we call a new born.

Kind of like if you came into existance in a swimming pool, you gained a sense of self awreness and about that you do, you get put into a sleeping bag and shoved in a corner at such a gradual rate that you fail to notice it ever happened. By the time you are there, the activity and movement that were the foundation of your identity have all but ceased, the environment they developed off and from has shrunk out of existence and youve been squeezed into a "cocoon" so to speak. In other words the whole world that the identity is dependant on cease to be and so does the dependant identy. There is however a vestige of the past lefe after birth. Many of the synapse required for a baby to swim around a womb are still favored after the child is birthed and translate into the crawling mechanism.

Its also importantant to realize that we call memory is not one solid thing; there are various types of memory. There is the type where I remeber semi consciouslly what I started out typing and what I just typed. If I wasn't using memory in typing the sentances I wouldnt know what I was typing or which word or letter should follow the next. This is semi conscious.

There is memory more associated with being human where one recalls an object or situation when it is not present and remembers.

There is a type of memory in constant use that when you look around the room, each and every object present actually stimulates memory, value and priority on every object that remains unconscious, on the verge of conscious should any object gain your attention.

Well, the FIRST part of neurological development is the separation of the three germ layers -- the ectoderm, endoderm, and mesoderm. The central nervous system is derived from ectoderm (though so is the skin). This happens on around day 16. Beyond that there is a series of steps, including formation of the neural crest cells, formation of the neural plate, and then invagination of the ectoderm to form the neural tube (which eventually becomes the brain, midbrain, brainstem, and spinal cord). There are cells in there all along. At some point (and I don't know which) you can call them neurons instead of neuroblasts or whatever other embryonic cell. But the fact that you can call them neurons doesn't necessarily make them functional.

This is one of many little tutorials out there on the web. Lots of med schools have online resources for their preclinical students.

Embryology Timeline Navigator

It takes more than neurons to have memory. The neurons are not fully myelinated (the fatty sheath around the axons) until well after a year of age, and as far as I'm aware there is no evidence that children have memories from below that time (and it's suspect whether there are any memories from before 2 years of age). Not that things at this age don't affect them later, but that is different than memory formation.

Also be aware that things develop at different rates in different parts of the brain. The midbrain and brainstem structures become functionally active first -- they control vital functions like breathing, autonomic tone (i.e. controlling heart rate and blood pressure), and eventually controlling body temperature.

The area that controls memory (the limbic system) develops and myelinates later on, and in fact it's not physiologically mature until LONG after birth.

Just because something has anatomically developed doesn't make it functional. The ovaries and testes have anatomically developed prenatally, for instance, but it's not until puberty that they have a meaningful physiologic function.

Thank you again for your input NeOH, and Aedes as well.

I'll get to the heart of my inquiry. I find myself often disgusted by the way so many Americans try to place blame for every shortcoming in their life on another person or an event rather than taking responsibility for them and making a positive change.

One of the most laughable instances of this are those who claim to have endured psychological trauma during birth that detrimentally effects them later in life. I personally have questioned the liklihood and even the possibility of this. From your input it sounds pretty impossible to me, or at most, there can be no proof that such an event during birth can be the cause of problems later in life.

If they were able to remember it (traumatic experience) though, doesn't that kinda refute everything so far?

I think you're being awfully unsympathetic. Believe me, I work in a job in which I see people in some of the worst times in their lives, and in many cases their past decisions have led or contributed to it.

And people search themselves to try and understand it. And people very seldom will badness on themselves -- so they feel an an incongruity between their choices and their situation. And the natural psychological defense for this is to externalize the locus of control.

I've never even heard of that. It must be pretty rare to claim that. Psychological trauma? Hmmm. There are certainly types of neurological trauma that kids can suffer intrapartum or antenatally, from birth asphyxia to fetal alcohol syndrome to genetic diseases, and these may have psychological and cognitive implications. But that's a different matter.

So are psychological traumas during childhood, even early childhood -- that CAN royally mess someone up for life.

Seems doubtful to me, but I've never heard that used as an excuse.

Prenatal trauma to neurons (traumatized neuron=engram) is the foundation of the scientologist philosophy, and uh...means of sustanance. Dyanetics is an interesting book if you can see the idea behind the book selling sceem.