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Can a concept have thought?

 
 
nerdfiles
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Mar, 2009 02:26 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Let me note once again that what you're speaking about is a Meme. This word was coined by Richard Dawkins in his book A Selfish Gene, and is described as:

"Memes act as cultural analogues to genes, in that they self-replicate and respond to selective pressures"

I've read most of the book, and I personally don't buy it.

Meme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Indeed. I get this feeling too.

So, the question is Why do memes (or these "concepts") travel to different human nodes? What is their impetus? Are they in any way verifiable by experiment?
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Mar, 2009 02:50 pm
@nerdfiles,
Quote:
You seem to speak in a matter-of-fact tone about our function. You seem to be taking something seriously for granted. I thought we gave up with the "human-as-function" analogy when we gave up Aristotle's conception of human purpose.


It seems some of us have not given up on it.

And as far as Memes and not buying it goes, if you don't buy it you don't buy it.

I have never argued that culture was a sentient being, only that it is a real thing the existence of which forces a reaction. These reactions feel forced upon us often. If we physically react to an abstracted thing the same as we would to a non-abstracted thing our reaction must be to the function it the abstraction represents and its function as a real thing becomes evident. If we react to it the same as we would to a person with a will it effectivly is the same. So if you don't believe that culture is a real thing then there is nothing for me to do.

Quote:
How do we function? Is it even useful to talk about the behavior of people within a culture solely in terms of their "function" with respect to that culture? Does it even make sense to talk about "the functions of humanity in cultures"? Which cultures? Are you supposing there is a "grand culture", one which embodies them all? What does that look like, and what functions would a person serve in this "grand culture"?


Definitions of Culture
Take your pick of definitions but as you might have garnered, I prefer the one by Kroeber. However as grand culture, meta culture, or particular culture it really doesn't matter as the main divergent point is whether culture is real or simply a bunch of freeform ideas that people happen to hold onto.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Mar, 2009 02:57 pm
@Welshie,
Quote:
Why do memes (or these "concepts") travel to different human nodes? What is their impetus?
To seek their impetus (if there is one), we'd need a full understanding of human interaction, specifically the notion of "qualia". If you're not familiar, "qualia" in philosophy is defined as: "sensory occurrences of all kinds; distinct from properties of objects". Qualia itself is debatable, most notably by Daniel Dennett, who proposes humans actually don't have any private experience (qualia). Which means: Physicalism all the way. If we agree with Dennett, consciousness is but a string of thermostats, and any knowledge derived from the concepts can be brought back to physicality. Every bit of knowledge would be quanitifiable, and empirical observation would be illustrating concepts have every bit as much 'power' as we do. Because, all "we" are, is a culmination of concepts, physical 'things'.

For sake of conversation, however, let's not agree with Dennett: Qualia exists, and subjective experience can be had that extends outside of the physical. If so, I don't see how a meme could hold power. If not all memes can be led back to physicality, from where do we seek the source of power? Well, the mind of course, and the mind, naturally able to have subjective, private experience, has being. Anything can exist notionally, but how does this give it force?

But even if Dennett is correct, how would one verify "Culture"? The notion is ambiguous to begin with, and I'm more than sure everyone draws the line at different places, even if those places lead back to physicality. I can't think of any ways to experiment without streamlining so much it wouldn't be a 'natural' occurance any more.
0 Replies
 
nerdfiles
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2009 09:12 pm
@Welshie,
If by "qualia" you mean "objects had by persons which are constituted by essentially and intrinsically private experience," then I must tell you that they do not exist.

If by "qualia" you mean the personal episodes I have with myself in the kitchen while cleaning or the events of my writing a song "in my head" as I walk my dog, then sure, qualia exist.

But we still reach the same conclusion: concepts, functions, etc cannot clean a kitchen, nor would they have an inclination to do so, and these things cannot walk a dog nor can they walk a dog. They're not the kinds of things which can intelligibly be said to do or not do these acts.

The denial of "private experience" needs clarification. If by "private experience" you mean something that is closer to laws, rules, property, conclusions, ideas, etc in ontological status, then yes physicalism would be such a doctrine. Thus, if you mean "ontologically private" in that we've now got a bloated ontological zoo, then yes, physicalism denies that. But physicalism does not deny private experience that could potentially be shared with others or the episodes you have in your head when you talk to yourself. Physicalism does not deny this.

Physicalism about ontologically private objects is physicalism about an incoherent concept. Private objects do not exist, but not on account of physicalism's arguments. So it would seem innocuous and mildly tangential to point out that physicalism is opposed to such things.

Physicalism would not be the doctrine that concepts are constituted by neurons. Physicalism's doctrine would have to be that concepts do not exist. We only have the illusion of their existence. Saying of an illusory thing that it has as much power as we do is nonsense. It is illusory; thereby its power is illusory. To say the least, your bit for Dennett is very much drenched in muddles. It's quite difficult to know where to begin.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2009 09:32 pm
@Welshie,
nerdfiles wrote:
Physicalism would not be the doctrine that concepts are constituted by neurons. Physicalism's doctrine would have to be that concepts do not exist. We only have the illusion of their existence. Saying of an illusory thing that it has as much power as we do is nonsense. It is illusory; thereby its power is illusory.


This is the part I misunderstood regarding physicalism. I thought concepts would be considered physical. All that followed within my writing assumed this to be true, so I can see why it appears so muddled.

Let's go back to your questions then, disregarding my last post:

Quote:
What is their impetus?
How would concepts have an impetus, absent of human intervention? If they are not actual, how can they be stimulated; how can they have a driving force?

Quote:
Why do memes (or these "concepts") travel to different human nodes?
Because of human interaction. Why else?
nerdfiles
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2009 10:40 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
This is the part I misunderstood regarding physicalism. I thought concepts would be considered physical. All that followed within my writing assumed this to be true, so I can see why it appears so muddled.


We may wish to step back because I can imagine a physicalist response such that my claim of what the physicalist would have to hold is "loaded." "Illusory," perhaps, needs clarification. But first: a physicalist may hold that things exist which correspond to the predicate "is a concept." However, what the physicalist must hold is that whatever has the predicate has that predicate wholly physically and solely in virtue of physical reasons.

Thus, "The concept of a horse is a concept" would be a proposition which has truth-conditions that in principle appeal to physical propositions (propositions solely constituted by physical language, the language of physics, about physical stuffs and going-ons). Its truth-conditions would be propositions about physical stuffs or arrangements or events. Honestly, I wish to ask, because it seems strange to me, but would this proposition even have truth-conditions on the physicalist's account?

"is a concept" would have to be a predicate about the constitution of brains. What about languages and meanings? The physicalist may hold that concepts, meanings, etc all supervene on the physical. But wouldn't this grant them some kind of (quasi-) existence?

Is to exist sort of to exist at all? Can something have quasi-existence? What about false concepts or things we take to be patent illusions or fictions? Do these things sort of existence?

Cultures exist. But the physicalist may have to say that a culture is nothing more than its spatio-temporal organization. But a cultures moral code? Its metaphysical doctrines?

What about implication, negation, the language of logic? What would it mean to say "The Law of Modus Ponens superviences on the physical?" And surely I doubt anyone would suggest that the laws of logic do not exist...or that they are illusory. Even if they were illusory, you may end up arguing that your own argument is illusory. That's strange.

Quote:
How would concepts have an impetus, absent of human intervention? If they are not actual, how can they be stimulated; how can they have a driving force?

Because of human interaction. Why else?
So the existence of concepts presuppose the existence of human beings. But our question seems to be whether concepts can achieve the same status as human beings.

But certainly we must determine whether it makes sense to say of a concept that it has reached the status of "human being." Whether it is true or not we can entertain later. First, we, as I said, must determine whether or not it makes sense. What would it look like for there to exist (human status concepts)?

Further, and this is a pragmatic constraint, why would or should we care, supposing that they could? Thus, why are we talking about this? Would the result of our findings have any bearing on anything ethical, epistemological, metaphysical, logical?
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2009 11:44 pm
@Welshie,
nerdfiles wrote:
We may wish to step back because I can imagine a physicalist response such that my claim of what the physicalist would have to hold is "loaded." "Illusory," perhaps, needs clarification. But first: a physicalist may hold that things exist which correspond to the predicate "is a concept." However, what the physicalist must hold is that whatever has the predicate has that predicate wholly physically and solely in virtue of physical reasons.

Thus, "The concept of a horse is a concept" would be a proposition which has truth-conditions that in principle appeal to physical propositions (propositions solely constituted by physical language, the language of physics, about physical stuffs and going-ons). Its truth-conditions would be propositions about physical stuffs or arrangements or events. Honestly, I wish to ask, because it seems strange to me, but would this proposition even have truth-conditions on the physicalist's account?


Do you mean the physicialist may not have truth-conditions because the proposition (constructed of physical 'stuffs') would also be "illusonary". That is, even the introspection, the critical thought going into the "Why" of the physicalist's proposition, wouldn't 'actually exist'. Thus, it would render the truth-conditions nonexistent?

Quote:
"is a concept" would have to be a predicate about the constitution of brains. What about languages and meanings? The physicalist may hold that concepts, meanings, etc all supervene on the physical. But wouldn't this grant them some kind of (quasi-) existence?

Is to exist sort of to exist at all? Can something have quasi-existence? What about false concepts or things we take to be patent illusions or fictions? Do these things sort of existence?


Ah, yes, this is what you were implying. Let me focus on your last question: It appears to me this must be so. For if they don't have a quasi-existence, how else would the proposition be based? Surely the physicalist is a physicalist based upon proposition. And isn't the proposition considered 'real', 'in existence'?

I like to refer to those fictional workings and patent illusions as "notionally existing". I suppose this is a quasi-existence, if only in the "illusion" of our minds?

Quote:
Cultures exist. But the physicalist may have to say that a culture is nothing more than its spatio-temporal organization. But a cultures moral code? Its metaphysical doctrines?


I don't know how a physicalist argues moral doctrine. Perhaps we have someone on the forum that is more versed in this philosophy. I'm just as curious as you.

Quote:
Even if they were illusory, you may end up arguing that your own argument is illusory


This is what I was referring up top. The method of philosophy must pass it's method to be valid, no?
Quote:

But certainly we must determine whether it makes sense to say of a concept that it has reached the status of "human being." Whether it is true or not we can entertain later. First, we, as I said, must determine whether or not it makes sense. What would it look like for there to exist (human status concepts)?


I have absolutely no clue, and this is why I entered this thread to begin with.

Quote:
Further, and this is a pragmatic constraint, why would or should we care, supposing that they could? Thus, why are we talking about this? Would the result of our findings have any bearing on anything ethical, epistemological, metaphysical, logical?


I suppose if we deduced a concept could have 'human status', it would add something to epistemology? I don't know how we could apply our findings to benefit any thought process, though.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2009 01:57 am
@Welshie,
How can you separate concept from a thought or concept from an idea, they all give rise to one another?

We need perception before we can conceive an idea and make that idea, hopefully into a concrete reality
0 Replies
 
 

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