Faith or Facts

@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Whoever. What atheistic religions?

I was thinking of Buddhism and Taoism in particular.

0 Replies

@MITech,

I believe in science and religion. Prove to me, MITech, that I cannot believe in both.

1 Reply

@ciceronianus,

ciceronianus wrote:

I believe in science and religion. Prove to me, MITech, that I cannot believe in both.

ciceronianus, Smile

Seeing as there is no necessary connection between truth and belief one can believe whatever one choses to. The popular form of organized superstition, organized religion is proof positive of that. The wonders that science is unfolding before us across the board, leads many scientests to become mystics. I think that only means that they are in awe and experiencing the sublime at the things they ponder.

1 Reply

@MITech,

Well, let me say this. Faith is something you have because you have evidence towards an idea but not fully supporting it. Faith and belief are very different.

You have faith in someone when they have proven themselves time and time again but you believe in someone before you know if they are truly capable.

When an idea or "fact" is coming to fruition, it is not something that just happens. It takes a great deal of time and effort into proving an idea to be fact. Thus, one must have faith that they are on the right path until the path proves fruitful or fruitless.

So as faith and fact are different, faith is a tool used to help achieve.

2 Replies

@Icon,

Icon,

In the presence of knowledge there is no need of faith, indeed the way the term is most often used by the faithful, it is wishful thinking, lord help me, help me in my disbelief!! May my imaginary friend substain me!! " Faith is believing what you know ain't so!":devilish:

1 Reply

@boagie,

And I suppose greed is a hinderance to progress?

All that man has and all that man has defined is a tool. I use faith to re-enforce my logic until I can conclude that I am correct or incorrect. The amazing thing about faith is that it can, like all things, change as we need it to.

That being said, I am strictly empirical by nature. I do not believe or have faith in anything which I cannot witness over and over again.

0 Replies

@boagie,

boagie wrote:

ciceronianus,

Seeing as there is no necessary connection between truth and belief one can believe whatever one choses to. The popular form of organized superstition, organized religion is proof positive of that. The wonders that science is unfolding before us across the board, leads many scientests to become mystics. I think that only means that they are in awe and experiencing the sublime at the things they ponder.

Yes, I was being rather silly.

I am not a scientist, but am among those who find the universe, and the possibility of other universes, so amazing that I am inclined to believe in God, rather as the stoics did, with some modifications.

I would never claim I have proof establishing the validity of that belief. But I find myself annoyed by the view sometimes taken by the nonreligious that only "facts" matter, and that statements not completely based on "facts" have no meaning.

1 Reply

@ciceronianus,

ciceronianus, Smile

Perhaps you could give an example? Everyone at sometime or another speculates about possiablities, those speculations generally begin with an empirical foundation however.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

ciceronianus,

Perhaps you could give an example? Everyone at sometime or another speculates about possiablities, those speculations generally begin with an empirical foundation however.

"The only Emperor is the Emperor of ice cream."

1 Reply

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

Well, let me say this. Faith is something you have because you have evidence towards an idea but not fully supporting it. Faith and belief are very different.

You have faith in someone when they have proven themselves time and time again but you believe in someone before you know if they are truly capable.

When an idea or "fact" is coming to fruition, it is not something that just happens. It takes a great deal of time and effort into proving an idea to be fact. Thus, one must have faith that they are on the right path until the path proves fruitful or fruitless.

So as faith and fact are different, faith is a tool used to help achieve.

Faith is more like trust than beleif.

1 Reply

@ciceronianus,

ciceronianus wrote:

"The only Emperor is the Emperor of ice cream."

Cireronianus, Smile

Only in the sense of the latin meaning of the term------lol!!:lol:No I believe it was, the intimations of the Sanskrit meaning was it not?

0 Replies

@boagie,

boagie;31049 wrote:

Rose,

Actually its is problematic to term what most people would call being open minded with the term faith, I do get your meaning, but it is an unfortunate way to express it.

Oh ****! Back to school for me! Laughing

1 Reply

@Rose phil,

Rose wrote:

Oh ****! Back to school for me!

Rose,

Not at all, if you do not mind the term being taken in the religious sense. Personally I do not identify with that particular group, so perhaps it is my own sensitivities.

1 Reply

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

Faith is more like trust than beleif.

Pretty much exactly what I am saying.

In relative terms, faith is like Theory where as belief is like..... blindly throwing yourself off of a cliff and hoping "God" catches you.

0 Replies

@boagie,

boagie;31284 wrote:

Rose,

Not at all, if you do not mind the term being taken in the religious sense. Personally I do not identify with that particular group, so perhaps it is my own sensitivities.

I'm not religious either.

And I don't care how it's taken by others.

If they are meant to understand what I'm saying then they will. If not, they can take it any way they want. :whistling:

1 Reply

@urangutan,

Faith- the belief in something without facts?

Fact-Something that can be proved with common logic and scientific method?

If these are the definitions of these two words, it seems that each word is held with higher meaning for different individuals based on the definition. I think that is understandable but close minded or maybe even a one sided statement no matter what, because even if god all of a sudden appeared to us and made his existence known beyond all doubt, these words would hold the same meaning, except maybe their importance or relevance would switch.

my opinion is neither. or to explain it better, i try to group these words in my head and distort them until they kind of come from the same place.

1 Reply

@Joe,

Hrmm[INDENT]Faith ("... firm belief in something for which there is no proof") is borne of some perceived need or hope. As such, it's part of what I like to term the Human Heart. It's precious, it's laudable, it reaches for hope, it's individual and subjective. A good thing - but not to be confused with a fact. Faith doesn't give us knowledge; nor is it intended to.
[/INDENT][INDENT]Facts ("... a piece of information presented as having objective reality"), or what we can reasonably call 'facts' help us to understand the way things 'are'. This is part of what I like to term the Human Mind; or the intellect. Facts may give us information, but they don't provide hope, motivation or joy; nor are they intended to.
[/INDENT]Each concept serves two distinctly different functions and each plays its own, distinct part. I have faith, as do we all, in those things were sufficient evidence doesn't exist, but that's not to say that it hasn't any purpose or doesn't give us something good. Often times it's those things in which people hold faith that give us insight into the human mind; much moreso than facts. It is in this way that faith is most revealing and most valuable.

The problem comes in when folks use Faith as Fact. Now, we need to step lightly here: What constitutes "fact" can be debated and disputed into oblivion (e.g., is it credible? is it rational? repeatable? consistent?). The critical thinker wants to carefully scrutinize what's called a fact.

I'd say this: Asking "Faith" or "Fact" is like asking "Tea" or "Pizza"... each serves its own right, as long as one isn't confused for the other. Woe to the snacker who tries to drink a slice of Double-Cheese and Pepperoni :shifty:

Thanks

1 Reply

@Khethil,

Khethil wrote:

Hrmm
[INDENT]Faith ("... firm belief in something for which there is no proof") is borne of some perceived need or hope. As such, it's part of what I like to term the Human Heart. It's precious, it's laudable, it reaches for hope, it's individual and subjective. A good thing - but not to be confused with a fact. Faith doesn't give us knowledge; nor is it intended to.
[/INDENT][INDENT]Facts ("... a piece of information presented as having objective reality"), or what we can reasonably call 'facts' help us to understand the way things 'are'. This is part of what I like to term the Human Mind; or the intellect. Facts may give us information, but they don't provide hope, motivation or joy; nor are they intended to.
[/INDENT]Each concept serves two distinctly different functions and each plays its own, distinct part. I have faith, as do we all, in those things were sufficient evidence doesn't exist, but that's not to say that it hasn't any purpose or doesn't give us something good. Often times it's those things in which people hold faith that give us insight into the human mind; much moreso than facts. It is in this way that faith is most revealing and most valuable.

The problem comes in when folks use Faith as Fact. Now, we need to step lightly here: What constitutes "fact" can be debated and disputed into oblivion (e.g., is it credible? is it rational? repeatable? consistent?). The critical thinker wants to carefully scrutinize what's called a fact.

I'd say this: Asking "Faith" or "Fact" is like asking "Tea" or "Pizza"... each serves its own right, as long as one isn't confused for the other. Woe to the snacker who tries to drink a slice of Double-Cheese and Pepperoni :shifty:

Thanks

The definition of these words seems to have distracted us from the original question so I will bring it back. The amazing thing about language is that it is subjective to the context. We are in the Philosophy of Religion section which means that we must look at the terms from that perspective.

Faith - belief in a diety or natural power which holds power of the universe

Fact - Scientific evaluation leading to conclusion about the universe we live.

Thse are loose definitions but the approximate context of the words in this situation. Getting in a battle over symantics is rather silly when you consider the source. Language is innadequate so we have to be careful how we approach the subject. Always take context into consideration as it can completely change the definition.

Example cited: Would you like a slice of the pie?

When talking food, this is a question about injesting a pie
When talking money, this is a question about getting your part of the total value
When talking the opposite sex, this is an innuendo for intercourse
When talking statistics, this is representing a chart of some sort.
When talking math, this is a question about an infinite number sequence
The situation can and DOES change the definition.

1 Reply

@Rose phil,

Rose,

I hope that does not apply to all your statements.

"Faith is trying to believe what you know ain't true.":poke-eye:

1 Reply

@boagie,

No. I was just feeling a bit crabby.

Thanks for your wonderful support and encouragement.

1 Reply

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