@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235 wrote:Aedes, I don't know why I put John Stuart Mill I was indeed thinking of John Locke. While the reference to Locke's ideology was prompted by practical need, it still
shaped the methods of government used to form this country, and don't think the founding fathers were not all very well read in philosophy and do not think that the writings of philosophers did not shape their worldview.
Also, do you really think Lenin was only paying lip sevice to marx? He seemed pretty sincere about his belief in the marxist doctrines. I think you might have him confused with stalin, who indeed twisted the doctrine to his likeing. Lenin, however, had a pretty short reign and seems to me quite the opposite of Joseph Stalin, observe a short speech against anti-semitism from lenin:
"The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized
pogromsTsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations.
["
Lenin was responsible for the revolution, Stalin was responsible for its bastardization.
Also, does not the Christian philosophy influence western society at its very core? Did not aristotle, plato, Socrates change the course of human tohught and progress to some extent at least?
Did you forget that Descartes had as much influence on the enlightenment as Newton?
You clearly forget that einstein often claimed philosophy to be integral to any sucessful scientist and often credits his romance with philosophy for the way of thinking that allowed him to discover what he did. I think you might not know much about Einstein to say that he saw 'mathematical problems with current physics' he didn't even invent the mathematics he used Poincare was responsible for E=MC^2 and Maxwell and Lagrange and Lorentz for most of the rest. He simply brought it all together in a rather philosophically coherent framework. Read this
Einstein's Philosophy of Science (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) and tell me einstein was not a philosopher.
I also take exception to the idea that he mathematically proved his theories. Clearly they are till theories, not laws, and there are indeed no physical 'laws' perse except for that misnomer applied to newton's discoveries. There are mathematical laws, but these do not prove physical laws, they are applied to observation. Einsten provided a more accurate and complete framework, but it is a grave misunderstanding of physics to say that he proved anything. You cannot prove what is based on observation with what is not. Physics is simply an adaptive framework that more and more closely approximates the relational nature of physical reality.
Metaphysics and a theory of forms are both well represented in the Declaration of Independence. For that reason I often refer to it.
It was Hasenohrl who had already pointedout that radiation enclosed in a cavity had a seemingly inert mass, m, proportional to the energy of the system, m being proportional E divided by CsQ, were C is the velocity of light. But he failed to compute the prortionality factor correctly. A guess is that in solving for mass, he was solving for what everyone knew, and in solving for E, Einstein was solving for what everyone wanted. I think, you should rephrase your statement about relational nature. Physics is a form of relationship. Just as the form of matter is put in relations to the form, Energy; all people who deal with these forms and try to grasp their meaning are all in a personal relationship with the others. It is just like us talking here. It allows an exchange of values, of meanings, a relationship. It may not be much, and many relationships are not much, but it is how the world is held together. It is not just strong, weak, and gravity and el/mag. For us it is people, and ideas.
I can't get enough of your post. You must be something. I'd like to hear more of your take on Russia. Do you think we are going to kick their butts in Georgia?
You know, the first philosopher I ever read was Marx, and the first anthropolgist I read was Morgan, something of a testimony to Marxism. But Idealism is an enemy of the people. It is not that what is said of Capitalism is not entirely valid. Capitalism does not work as a form or as an economy. No form works as a form. A form is like a snail's shell. It may protect the life of the snail or it may not. It is not the life of the snail, and yet it is. We have forms, and we build forms for a perfectly good reason, and while they may be motivated by ideals, they should never be thought of as ideal. Our view of the American constitution and government as ideal, and as the best humanity can manage has halted our progress in the past. We could do better, but we are trapped by the form, which contols our relationship, but also our view of all other forms.
I am sure, you know from personal experience that the formal relationships that you have had with teachers, preachers, or police have been less rewarding that your more informal relationships with friends. If we are guided to some extent by our forms, and it is true that humanity has always had its forms and progressed by way of forms, still, it is the relationships that are the life of the form. Rather than building an ideal society, try only to build a society, not perfect, but conducive to the relationships within.
Humans in my estimation should be like those crabs that are forever changing shells to admit growth. Our mental growth is governed by formal understanding, and as we gain new ideas to explain and express physical reality we also gain in intellectual development. But, Our social forms, which are built of moral forms, ideas beyond measurement, and given only to hyperbolic expression are the least easy to manage, and they create the greatest of suffering out of many confused definitions. Look at it for a moment as I. We cannot build the perfect society by building a perfect form, and perfection is the enemy of people who are never, ever perfect. Rather, look into morality, because you are dealing with moral forms; and look into relationships, and what works, and why works when works. Our forms of government and economy and religion are not working. These gears of life are galled and raw, and they howl like thepeople who must endure them. Find out what works because tomorrow we might have to full fill the promise of liberty and justice for all, and we had better know our stuff. Thanks, and best to you.