Do you believe in God?

@Pythagorean,

Pathfinder wrote:

In life we see that evrything has its opposite, the ying and yang factor. why is it so hard to naturally assume the spiritual is the ying to physicals yang.

Where else do we see spirituality but in humans?

0 Replies

@Pythagorean,

My father is dying, and I left him in that condition, and might have been killed myself...One of his old friends came over and they talked about a time when swinging Iggy (St. Ignace) was not so high and mighty...For example, He was talking about his old house that had an out house with no door, so you could sit out in the fresh air watching the boats go by... His brother had no out house at all, and he related how they almost lost an out house on the road that was given to them when the former owners got plumbing, and right in front of city hall at that...
He testified that one of the nuns had told him that if he were ever in danger to pray to St. Joseph... Right after school as he was walking home from the third grade, a huge German Shepard came out of no where with bared teeth, and growling... He said: St. Joseph, help me... The dog turned in his tracks, and left him in peace...He gave my father his blessing, and nearly burst into tears in the process... Speaking from experience, people do not always pray for a recovery they do not expect, but for a good death that they can accept...What ever the Christians say, good people must be good, if they are good -with the very power of creation, for what else would be God... And what do bad people do but destroy...
I'm okay...Some one lost a chair just bought in the middle of the highway...I was on the third leg of a long journey, and some women got into my blind spot and would not pass.. When they did pass, I was kind of keeping an eye on them to make sure they did nothing stupid, and all of a sudden they were both looking left and right and I knew there was something on the road or on the side...I never did see it, and nearly missed it...I ran into that box full of rocking chair at seventy miles per and it might have killed me if I had hit it straight on...Any way, except for a banged up leg and a swelled up foot, I am Okay... If it hurts as bad tomorrow I will get some xrays....I drove back and pulled the box out of the road... Try that with a car, going the wrong way on the interstate...Man, did that hurt...Tore my leather boot wide open...Hey St. Joseph, save me from the idiots of this world and remind me to keep my eyes peeled...

---------- Post added 08-14-2009 at 11:55 PM ----------

Zetherin;83338 wrote:

Where else do we see spirituality but in humans?

My dog begs but he never prays... Maybe he knows something I should remember....

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido;83378 wrote:

My dog begs but he never prays... Maybe he knows something I should remember....

Do you watch it all the time? =)

Pathfinder;83336 wrote:

In life we see that evrything has its opposite, the ying and yang factor. why is it so hard to naturally assume the spiritual is the ying to physicals yang.

They dont seem to oppose each other, as far as I can tell =)

1 Reply

@Pythagorean,

The point was being made that there is such a thing as a spiritual reality.

Not sure what your replies meant.

2 Replies

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;83498 wrote:

The point was being made that there is such a thing as a spiritual reality.

Not sure what your replies meant.

My point was that we don't see spirituality any where else in nature but in humans.

Just what is a "spiritual reality", by the way?

Quote:

In life we see that evrything has its opposite, the ying and yang factor. why is it so hard to naturally assume the spiritual is the ying to physicals yang.

Everything has an opposite? What is the opposite of a tree branch, or a piece of purple plastic? Things seem to just... be. Isn't it through our evaluation that things are an opposite (or not)? Or are you speaking more scientifically, i.e., force charges of electrons and protons being opposites, or magnetic repulsion?

If spirituality is simply our construct, why would it be the ying to the physical realm's yang? Why are you creating this dichotomy?

Fido wrote:

My dog begs but he never prays... Maybe he knows something I should remember....

Well, we humans just have a greater capacity for delusion. If your dog were more intelligent, he'd probably be praying (to his doggy god) that the scrappings from the table fell on the floor (instead of just begging).

Quote:

My father is dying, and I left him in that condition, and might have been killed myself...One of his old friends came over and they talked about a time when swinging Iggy (St. Ignace) was not so high and mighty...For example, He was talking about his old house that had an out house with no door, so you could sit out in the fresh air watching the boats go by... His brother had no out house at all, and he related how they almost lost an out house on the road that was given to them when the former owners got plumbing, and right in front of city hall at that...

Was this in response to anything posted in this thread?

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zeth you may recall our indepth discussion of the identity of a soul in which you forced me to take a second look at identity.

When I speak of spirituality I speak of possibilities of what may or may not be based upon evidences that we do not comprehend. We feel the wind in our faces but we cannot see it or devise an image of it. All wee see is the manifestations of its effects.

Of course there are many tangible things that do not have exact opposites, and that the actual concept of opposition is created in the thought processes of the human mind anyway. But does our ability to reason, rationalize and devise mean that the things we consider are therefore not credible or real?

Just because I am able to devise the differences between an apple and an orange in my mind doesn't mean that those differences aren't real.

What you are suggesting as you always do, is that we should not strive to make up imginary things and than dwell on them as though they have become reality. Waste of time!

What I do is speak of the possibilities based upon their degrees of credibility. I am not speculating on monsters in the attic when I speak of spirituality. I am speaking of the dynamics surrounding life and death, the mystery of the mind versus the brain, the ability to feel emotions and how they drive our lives, etc. etc.

If the possibility of a spiritual reality were as absurd as you make it sound this world would not be built upon the foundations of so many religious ideals. The study of spirituality is as credible as any other scientific study when compared to what can be proven and what cannot be proven.

0 Replies

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;83498 wrote:

The point was being made that there is such a thing as a spiritual reality.

Not sure what your replies meant.

As far as I know the idea behind ying and yang is that they are opposite forces that, well, oppose each other, and I dont see why body and soul could be seen in such a manner.

0 Replies

@Pythagorean,

Pathfinder wrote:

What I do is speak of the possibilities based upon their degrees of credibility. I am not speculating on monsters in the attic when I speak of spirituality. I am speaking of the dynamics surrounding life and death, the mystery of the mind versus the brain, the ability to feel emotions and how they drive our lives, etc. etc.

But how are you speaking of the dynamics of all life and death, when you and I are both aware spirituality is only present in humans (or did you imply only human life?). Spirituality is not the catalyst for thought, my friend. Nor does it allow us to have emotions. Spirituality is one thing that can be thought, and can be felt in some sense (according to those I know who are spiritual). I'm very interested in how you've come to the conclusion spirituality is the key to human life, that it drives our existence.

Quote:

If the possibility of a spiritual reality were as absurd as you make it sound this world would not be built upon the foundations of so many religious ideals. The study of spirituality is as credible as any other scientific study when compared to what can be proven and what cannot be proven.

I'm just not understanding what you mean by "spiritual reality". I understand people are spiritual - to deny this would be absurd. Let's be clear: I'm not starting a science vs. spirituality debate, either. People can believe what they want to believe. I may differ in opinion and go about thought processes a different way, but you're right, it doesn't necessary make me "right". I simply prefer a certain way of thinking, and I'm not one to believe things without some sort of logical verification. I understand, however, that many others aren't like me.

I don't believe spirituality is this poignant mystery you seem to be making it out to be. Humans want to believe there is something 'greater' than this material world. As Joseph Cambpell said, "God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought". Some things don't make sense logically, and so humans reach for an answer and come up metaphysically-handed. It's definitely part of humanity, and it makes sense why it is. What do you think?

PS:

Quote:

What you are suggesting as you always do, is that we should not strive to make up imginary things and than dwell on them as though they have become reality. Waste of time!

There is usually this hidden implication in my writing, you're absolutely right.

1 Reply

@Pythagorean,

Why do people keep saying that the big bang was something that came from nothing? That is like saying the fire cracker just magically appeared then exploded. Very few scientists actually make any such claims that there was nothing before the big bang. 99% of them say the universe existed as a very small point of something. *perhaps highly condensed energy* This whole thing about coming from nothing is a creationist propaganda spin to make the big bang theory sound less reasonable. The idiotic part they neglect to realize is the fact that if a god or gods created the universe then wouldn't it still be "from nothing"? If they snap their fingers and *poof* the universe came into being, where the hell did it come from? Or what did the gods craft the universe out of? See we can make stuff out of materials that already exist, but since when have you ever made anything out of something that doesn't exist? Oh wait a second, I know one thing we have made that doesn't exist, god.

0 Replies

@manored,

manored;83456 wrote:

Do you watch it all the time? =)

No; but we got a thing...He wouldn't hide anything like that from me... Hell, he likes to french me everytime he gets the chance... I look at him, and he looks at me, and its love...I may have known his great, great, great, great aunt...I got all my mothering skills from a dog, and she was good at it...I dare say my own mother was not much better, but she did pray, and was a better cook...

---------- Post added 08-16-2009 at 10:47 PM ----------

Krumple;83665 wrote:

Why do people keep saying that the big bang was something that came from nothing? That is like saying the fire cracker just magically appeared then exploded. Very few scientists actually make any such claims that there was nothing before the big bang. 99% of them say the universe existed as a very small point of something. *perhaps highly condensed energy* This whole thing about coming from nothing is a creationist propaganda spin to make the big bang theory sound less reasonable. The idiotic part they neglect to realize is the fact that if a god or gods created the universe then wouldn't it still be "from nothing"? If they snap their fingers and *poof* the universe came into being, where the hell did it come from? Or what did the gods craft the universe out of? See we can make stuff out of materials that already exist, but since when have you ever made anything out of something that doesn't exist? Oh wait a second, I know one thing we have made that doesn't exist, god.

Saying we understand what happened possibly does not get us at all closer to the reason it all happened...It is the only valid argument for God, and for not much of an argument for a God as commonly conceived...I will say this: if it were possible to condense matter into a small point, it would be because it does not have energy...Yet, what sort of time frame are we talking about??? When that happens, the matter will becoming together with more speed than all the gravity can contain, so it would keep on going...Sure, you could reach a small point mass, and time would be meaningless at that point, but it would only be for a small fraction of our time...What we may be thinking of as the big bang may be going on all of the time, as matter evaporates all the time from black holes along their electrical fields...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido;83677 wrote:

Saying we understand what happened possibly does not get us at all closer to the reason it all happened...It is the only valid argument for God, and for not much of an argument for a God as commonly conceived...I will say this: if it were possible to condense matter into a small point, it would be because it does not have energy...Yet, what sort of time frame are we talking about??? When that happens, the matter will becoming together with more speed than all the gravity can contain, so it would keep on going...Sure, you could reach a small point mass, and time would be meaningless at that point, but it would only be for a small fraction of our time...What we may be thinking of as the big bang may be going on all of the time, as matter evaporates all the time from black holes along their electrical fields...

The fact all matter was ultra-compressed doesnt necessarly means it was not ultra-compressed before being ultra-compressed, no one has any idea of what might have been before this "singularity"

Oh, and events have nothing to do with reasons, I suspect they dont like each other much =)

0 Replies

@Zetherin,

Zetherin,

you said " I'm very interested in how you've come to the conclusion spirituality is the key to human life, that it drives our existence.."

The debate we have is that you refrain from considering anything as worthy of interest unless it has some scientific testing and evidential credibility through such examination.

We are very close to being on the same page as I too refuse to be caught up in imaginary speculations of personal ideologies. I also must have some logical reason to consider something credible.

Where we part ways is that I do see something supernatural about the identity and extraordinary persona of the human being that has teased the greatest minds for thousands of years. In my mind spirituality or whatever terminology you want to use to define it, is very credible and deserving of our fullest attention.

The question of whether or not there is some sort of life force within the physical body that is present over and above the actual physical material of a body directly relates to life and death, intelligence, emotion and many of the things which every living human being experiences and wonders about.

This is not incredible and useless theorizing. This is not grasping at invisible straws. This is dissecting the most important aspects of what makes us what we are. This is looking with the greatest magnification at the most minute details of what a living being is.

This study is not creating imaginary items to ponder over. This is simply delving deeper into the things we have been pondering over for as long as we have been able to think intelligently.

So do I think that spiritulaity holds the key to life?

I would not even define the mystery as spirituality in the first place to be honest with you. That term has too many connotations.

Do I believe that there is some unknown aspect of the force behind what makes a person alive and able to think? And do I believe that THAT is where we might find the secret to the mystery of life?

I sure as hell do!

0 Replies

@Pythagorean,

Quote:

What we may be thinking of as the big bang may be going on all of the time, as matter evaporates all the time from black holes along their electrical fields..

I'm not absolutely sure that matter is "evaporating" in black holes. I know it is a commonly held theory but I don't accept that the matter falling in is being destroyed. There are other theories that as the black hole accumulates additional matter it actually shrinks due to the increased gravitational field. This tells me that the matter is still there, if it were being destroyed then black holes would never gain any mass nor change their shape.

My other major question is, if black holes can bend light due to high gravitational fields how is it that it can emit two beams of radiation at it's poles that originate at the event horizon. Why does this radiation escape the gravitational pull but other photons can't escape? It would seem to me that the radiation wouldn't ever get far enough from the event horizon before being pulled back in. No one has ever given me a good explanation of how this radiation escapes. I've heard lots of junk arguments about the radiation being created far enough away to escape but from all the accounts the event horizon is the origin of this radiation so how could it be "created just far enough away."?

2 Replies

@Krumple,

Ask Holiday, he would know the answer of why that is. Anyway, you may want to consult the formula for black hole entropy. An observer of a black hole would see particles popping out of the local acceleration horizon and being sucked back in. However, you may also envision particle-antiparticle pairs emitted from just beyond the event horizon. It comes from 'virtual' particles rather than the actual black hole, explaining how something can escape. The reason may be that the pair separates, accelerating the particle with negative energy towards the black hole, and accelerating the other outward enough to escape the black hole's gravitational pull. To an observer, they would see the particle escaping. Exactly why this happens I don't know, i'm not an expert. I'm not sure if that's correct, so I would ask someone else. Of course, we know that because a black hole has entropy, it suggests that information about what falls in is stored like on a record, and leaves when it is played back. A black hole must also have entropy to comply with the second [I believe it is the second] law of thermodynamics.

0 Replies

@Krumple,

Krumple;83993 wrote:

I'm not absolutely sure that matter is "evaporating" in black holes. I know it is a commonly held theory but I don't accept that the matter falling in is being destroyed. There are other theories that as the black hole accumulates additional matter it actually shrinks due to the increased gravitational field. This tells me that the matter is still there, if it were being destroyed then black holes would never gain any mass nor change their shape.

My other major question is, if black holes can bend light due to high gravitational fields how is it that it can emit two beams of radiation at it's poles that originate at the event horizon. Why does this radiation escape the gravitational pull but other photons can't escape? It would seem to me that the radiation wouldn't ever get far enough from the event horizon before being pulled back in. No one has ever given me a good explanation of how this radiation escapes. I've heard lots of junk arguments about the radiation being created far enough away to escape but from all the accounts the event horizon is the origin of this radiation so how could it be "created just far enough away."?

I have read some physics by way of learning something about everything, but I do not pretend to understand it as it should be understood... Gravity may seem like a constant because it usually is, but under certain circumstances it can become anything but a consant, butt is rather extreme at some points, and non existant at other points... When stars nova, this is one of the things that happens, and it turns the star inside out in a fraction of a second.... With dark holes it is possible for electro magnetic forces to accelerate possitive and negative matter along with neutral matter far beyond the field of gravity because at the poles graviity is simply not strong enough to resist the speed of the matter as it is accelerated... In a massive body like a black hole the risitence would be too high for matter of one charge to reach the opposite charge short of becoming a form of light and taking the field way around... As with solar flares, it is possible for a lot of matter of larger size and slower velocity to be ejected with the charge through the field...If its ark is long and speed is swift, and size is small then possibly it could escape the gravitational field of even a dark hole... But, if you actually know some physics, and if this seems like bunk, then I cannot really defend it....

I will say this... The larger is a round object the straighter are its sides... At some point, the attraction of matter to matter laterally, as it were, the attraction of New York to San Francisco would be great enough to turn the earth in between inside out for lack of a better way of putting it into words...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido;89231 wrote:

I have read some physics by way of learning something about everything, but I do not pretend to understand it as it should be understood... Gravity may seem like a constant because it usually is, but under certain circumstances it can become anything but a consant, butt is rather extreme at some points, and non existant at other points... When stars nova, this is one of the things that happens, and it turns the star inside out in a fraction of a second.... With dark holes it is possible for electro magnetic forces to accelerate possitive and negative matter along with neutral matter far beyond the field of gravity because at the poles graviity is simply not strong enough to resist the speed of the matter as it is accelerated... In a massive body like a black hole the risitence would be too high for matter of one charge to reach the opposite charge short of becoming a form of light and taking the field way around... As with solar flares, it is possible for a lot of matter of larger size and slower velocity to be ejected with the charge through the field...If its ark is long and speed is swift, and size is small then possibly it could escape the gravitational field of even a dark hole... But, if you actually know some physics, and if this seems like bunk, then I cannot really defend it....

I will say this... The larger is a round object the straighter are its sides... At some point, the attraction of matter to matter laterally, as it were, the attraction of New York to San Francisco would be great enough to turn the earth in between inside out for lack of a better way of putting it into words...

are you off the pain pills yet? i cant tell...my physics is lesser than yours.

listen, i hope you were not saying your father was in the car and that he was critically injured-is he ok now?

---------- Post added 09-10-2009 at 12:45 AM ----------

Krumple;83665 wrote:

Why do people keep saying that the big bang was something that came from nothing? That is like saying the fire cracker just magically appeared then exploded. Very few scientists actually make any such claims that there was nothing before the big bang. 99% of them say the universe existed as a very small point of something. *perhaps highly condensed energy* This whole thing about coming from nothing is a creationist propaganda spin to make the big bang theory sound less reasonable. The idiotic part they neglect to realize is the fact that if a god or gods created the universe then wouldn't it still be "from nothing"? If they snap their fingers and *poof* the universe came into being, where the hell did it come from? Or what did the gods craft the universe out of? See we can make stuff out of materials that already exist, but since when have you ever made anything out of something that doesn't exist? Oh wait a second, I know one thing we have made that doesn't exist, god.

well, the gods could have made stuff out of themselves-whatever it is they were made of. but then you would have to ask where was the stuff the gods were made of before they existed? or were they always there?

because no matter how you look at it, either something was always in existence or there was a time when nothing existed and something appeared, and i think the latter sounds the least likely. but i dont think we will ever find out. if we keep experimenting and try to make something out of nothing and accomplish it some day, then we would have the proof that was possible at least. but why would anyone care either way?

2 Replies

@salima,

salima;89251 wrote:

because no matter how you look at it, either something was always in existence or there was a time when nothing existed and something appeared, and i think the latter sounds the least likely. but i dont think we will ever find out. if we keep experimenting and try to make something out of nothing and accomplish it some day, then we would have the proof that was possible at least. but why would anyone care either way?

Yeah reductionist infinite loop problem. It is possible however that everything is energy and that energy is just a potential and nothing substantial. Sort of like how your imagination fuels your creativity and with that creativity you fabricate something from that.

The example would be the cell phone. It didn't always exist but first it existed as a concept, the concept was born out of the imagination then with some creativity it was fabricated into a substantial tool of systematically arranged "atoms". The atoms are 99.99% empty space. The last bit is energy, either in a kinetic, potential or uniform state.

0 Replies

@salima,

salima;89251 wrote:

are you off the pain pills yet? i cant tell...my physics is lesser than yours.

listen, i hope you were not saying your father was in the car and that he was critically injured-is he ok now?

---------- Post added 09-10-2009 at 12:45 AM ----------

I have not been taking pain pills...My foot just turned an ugly black and blue and swelled up, and is still pretty swelled... My father is dying of prostate cancer, and is already a skel...He told an old joke from my childhood recently and did me the favor of helping me to realize that I do not like him very much, and that he has contributed mightily to my failures in life, which are numerous...Worse, He numbed me to my own feelings, and made me accept and expect hateful behavior from myself... Growing up and becoming human has been the same as breaking away from him...All I have left is my honorable responsability as a child to a parent...He learned from me better than i learned from him, and he did better with those who followed me... They love him and I let them love, and I hope they can forgive me some day for the pain I caused them..

0 Replies

@Pythagorean,

Pythagorean;2636 wrote:

Please vote above.

Please tell me if you believe in God or don't believe.

Perhaps you could give some explanation or reason for your position?

Thank you
--Pythagorean

I don't. Not really.
I mean, I believe it's possible. But I lean towards disbelief.
I'm basically just agnostic.
My reason is that I've seen no proof of any deity thus far in life.

I believe if there is any "god" out there it most likely isn't an actual entity so much as a...life force, in a manner of speaking. That I can't attribute to any logic or reasoning, just how I feel.

0 Replies

@Pythagorean,

I have seen no proof of God but all that I can never explain that I presume to have cause...

1 Reply

Do you believe in God?

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