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Why aren't we talking about "Draw Muhammad Day?" May 20th

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:00 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Defending Nazi asshole's right to assemble is worth defending. Defending a hippie’s right to burn the flag is worth defending. And yes, defending Larry Flint's right to make dirty jokes about prominent religious figures was worth defending.


Yes, but you don't defend Nazi speech by engaging in it yourself, you don't defend burning the flag by burning flags en masse, and you don't defend religious attacks by engaging in them! You instead intellectually argue why people should be allowed to express themselves.
Were it not for a legal system equipped to defend these unpopular acts, that is precisely how you would defend them. If every passerby were willing to engage a mugger in Manhattan (rather than mind their own business), how many muggings do you suppose there would be? Our government is not equipped to defend Matt and Trey, so we must by broadening the target to us all. If we don't, the bully will have won... and he WILL use this tactic again. Read JFK quote again… and see if it rings true.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:02 pm
Bill - Still. What about the Muslims that have nothing to do with this?

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hawkeye10
 
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Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:05 pm
@failures art,
Quote:
Part of my apprehension is the idea that this is exactly what these groups want: To legitimize the notion that the USA/West/etc is the enemy of the "Islamic world."
they are going to think that anyways until and unless we give up free speech and also are willing to conform to the anti modern views expressed by modern Islam. **** them. We do what we do, they can do what they want to do, and if they don't like it that is too god damn bad. Please grow a set of balls F.A., you are embarrassing the rest of us men.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:08 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Defending Nazi asshole's right to assemble is worth defending. Defending a hippie’s right to burn the flag is worth defending. And yes, defending Larry Flint's right to make dirty jokes about prominent religious figures was worth defending.


Yes, but you don't defend Nazi speech by engaging in it yourself, you don't defend burning the flag by burning flags en masse, and you don't defend religious attacks by engaging in them! You instead intellectually argue why people should be allowed to express themselves.
Were it not for a legal system equipped to defend these unpopular acts, that is precisely how you would defend them. If every passerby were willing to engage a mugger in Manhattan (rather than mind their own business), how many muggings do you suppose there would be? Our government is not equipped to defend Matt and Trey, so we must by broadening the target to us all. If we don't, the bully will have won... and he WILL use this tactic again. Read JFK quote again… and see if it rings true.



I am not against defending free speech.

But Matt and Trey are, by definition, artists who are sending a message by depicting Mohamed (or whoever). There is inherent value to their message, and that's what is worth defending, no matter what that message is. Like you I don't seek for anything to be made illegal by the government - or inexpressible thanks to the threats of extremists. But I don't think that the tactic of copying that speech over and over again will be effective in the way that you think it will. Whatever the original message was, and the value it had, will be lost.

Please understand that it is possible to hold the same (or very similar values) and disagree with what would be a more effective method of dealing with a problem.

Last thing,

Quote:
Our government is not equipped to defend Matt and Trey, so we must by broadening the target to us all.


It isn't? Yaknow, they made fun of Mohamed in cartoons years ago, and even though Comedy Central wouldn't show it, you could see it on the internet and millions did. I know they got death threats back then as well. And they seem to be kicking around okay today.

Cycloptichorn
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:08 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

Part of my apprehension is the idea that this is exactly what these groups want: To legitimize the notion that the USA/West/etc is the enemy of the "Islamic world."

This kind of propaganda won't be used to attack us necessarily, it will be used to galvanize local tribes into their cause (to any end).
This is a valid point to be sure. But If find it less compelling than telling the guy who would murder a cartoonist that he will not force his beliefs on me by way of threat. What's next, threatening to kill women who wear short skirts? (You'd better believe that's in the master plan.)
Amigo
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:10 pm
I will gladley join "Draw Muhammad Day". It is a great idea.

What do I do? I'm assuming I make a drawing of Muhammad.
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failures art
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:10 pm
@hawkeye10,
Manhood and navigating complex cross cultural communication are two topics you have an overly simplistic view of hawk.

I asked the question, because we've seen it happen before. In Iraq for instance, AQ presence went up as a result of our being there largely because our presence was used to recruit.

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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:14 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

Bill - Still. What about the Muslims that have nothing to do with this?
I answered that I believe the vast majority will understand the act of defiance, even if they don't like it. I don't particularly like flag burning, and most certainly don't go downtown to watch the KKK march... but I'll defend their right to do so till the cows come home. We simply cannot allow threats of violence by extemists to to take precedence over our constitutional right to choose. They don't have to look at my drawing, and I don't have to look at theirs.
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failures art
 
  4  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:30 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:

failures art wrote:

Part of my apprehension is the idea that this is exactly what these groups want: To legitimize the notion that the USA/West/etc is the enemy of the "Islamic world."

This kind of propaganda won't be used to attack us necessarily, it will be used to galvanize local tribes into their cause (to any end).
This is a valid point to be sure. But If find it less compelling than telling the guy who would murder a cartoonist that he will not force his beliefs on me by way of threat. What's next, threatening to kill women who wear short skirts? (You'd better believe that's in the master plan.)

I have no doubt you are correct Bill. Strategically speaking, it's harder to sell the idea that women are wearing shorts to insult your customs than it is to say that people are intentionally drawing Muhammad to get your attention.

I'm reminded of a bit i read about bra burning. The author escapes me at the moment, but the point was good: Burning bras as a message to reject the tyranny of chauvinism was one thing, but the moment it became mandatory to do to be a feminist, it just became a new form of bondage.

If I decide to draw Muhammad, I'll do it whenever I please. May 20th? Why not today? Why not anytime? I think the message should be do it, and do it whenever. I guess I don't see the point in it being in some huge wave. Why give these people something to address. If you make May 20th somehow important, you allow them to plan a counter.

For example (with only MS Paint handy at the moment...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3psklkrOgk/S-jOsbldszI/AAAAAAAABGs/vxfNl6NKiY4/s1600/Muhammad.jpg

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The file name is "Muhammad.jpg" for easy googling.
failures art
 
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Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:31 pm
@failures art,
Of course... MSPaint doesn't have a spell check... damnit... So amazingly typical of me.

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Typical
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:48 pm
@failures art,
Hellova lot better than I'll come up with! I am impressed. I didn't pick the 20th, it came out in a cartoon, from a cartoonist who's now distancing herself from it at breakneck pace out of fear. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/04/creators-of-everybody-draw-muhammad-day-abandon-effort-after-it-becomes-controversial.html
I think your everyday strategy has merit, but more people will feel comfortable as just another artist among many on a particular day. No one really wants to be the target of hatred and you show courage by posting alone. The bottom line is; our freedom to make fun of religion doesn't blend well with their desire to forbid it. And they're just going to have to get over it, because America is heading away from letting religious groups shape policy.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 10:25 pm
@failures art,
I'm definately not the artist you are. Embarrassed But I didn't want to leave you hangin alone. Cheers!
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2628/muhammadg.jpg

failures art
 
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Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 10:28 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Cheers.

Art has for a long time been a part of protest. After some thinking, there's really nothing new about this. Group art even has been around for a long time.

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OCCOM BILL
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 10:37 pm
@failures art,
Always nice to see someone think their way through an issue. That's really what it's all about.

Your turn Cyclo!
BorisKitten
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 06:29 am
@OCCOM BILL,
Neutral
Muhammad, depicted above.

There. Now I'm all ready for May 20th.

Thanks, Bill!
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Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 06:53 am
Muhammad did not like the christian practice of praying to statues. He forbade any likeness of himself to be made to prevent that. It is totally alien for muslims to want a picture of him and they resist it, even if it is flattering, as the start of idol worship. Some radicals do not like any images, saying that in our soul we have the start of idolatory if we see images around us. TV was only accepted in Saudi Arabia when the mullahs were shown how the Qur' an can be spread via it.
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djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 06:58 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:
Is drawing Mohammad for the sake of free speech somehow better than shouting "nigger" or "spick" for the sake of free speech?


FYI it's "spic" as in hispanic

this has been a publick service announcement Razz
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dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 07:03 am
I am concerned about the picture used as a still at the start of the video.
the picture of that bear is synonomous with nasty pictures of children

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pedobear
djjd62
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 07:06 am
http://members.cox.net/classicliz/images/howard-moe.jpg http://milocat.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/ham.jpg http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/files/2009/05/mr_ed3.gif
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 11:33 am
@dadpad,
dadpad wrote:

I am concerned about the picture used as a still at the start of the video.
the picture of that bear is synonomous with nasty pictures of children

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pedobear
Why does this concern you? I'm sure it's no coincidence. What do you call a guy who marries a 6 year old and has sex with her at 9?

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: wrote:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

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