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Could Nothing Be Responsible For Our Creation

 
 
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:04 pm
Nothing has value, which therefore means it is something. Imagine nothing. It can be as big as yo want, because nothing can stop nothing. Then somehow something is created and the universe is here? Can it be true?
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Type: Question • Score: 9 • Views: 964 • Replies: 19
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chai2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:06 pm
@MattTravis,
What do you mean "nothing has value"?

are you saying there is an inherent value in the quality of being nothing?
0 Replies
 
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:38 pm
@MattTravis,
My understanding of 'nothing' is that it is exactly what the word seems to denote -- the absence of anything. An empty space is not nothing. It is an empty space, therefore something. Nothing is just a concept. I've never encountered the existence of nothing, nor, I suspect, has anyone else. For scientific and philosophical purposes we speak of 'nothing' as though it actually existed. But there is no empirical evidence for this.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:41 pm
Wow . . . talk about begging the question!

Why would anyone assume that there were a creation?
0 Replies
 
oolongteasup
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 03:33 am
@MattTravis,
Quote:
Could Nothing Be Responsible For Our Creation


if it is held that nothing could be responsible then nothing could be responsible

unless nothing cannot be held responsible

for something from nothing

yes
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 03:58 am
@MattTravis,
Quote:
Nothing has value, which therefore means it is something.

Not really. The number zero (0) has value, but that's different from 'nothing':
Quote:
From: Doctor Pete Subject: Re:
The difference between 0 and nothing -Most mathematicians consider 0 to be a number, and "nothing" to be the empty set; they are related in that the empty set has zero elements in it; that is, the *cardinality* of the empty set is zero.

To explain a bit more in detail, I will give a bit of set theory at this point. We can think of "sets" as collections of objects. For instance, we can have a set like: S = {dog, cat, horse, car} I've used the braces "{ }" to group the objects together. Each object (dog, for instance), is called an *element*. Such a collection consists of "subcollections," or *subsets*. That is, there is a subset of the above set which consists of those elements which are animals. Mathematicians say: A = { x in S : x is an animal } = {dog, cat, horse} We read this as, "A is the set of all x in S such that x is an animal." So we say that A is *contained* in S.

Similarly, we can define another subset of S as: N = { x in S : x is a machine } = {car} Or we could have said: N = { x in S : x is not an animal } = { x in S : x not in A } = S \ A Here the backslash "\" is another notation mathematicians use, which is kind of like subtraction. What happens is we let N consist of elements in S which are not in A. Naturally, one might ask, what is E = { x in S : x is neither an animal nor a machine } ? Or, if we really want to be crazy, what is E = S \ S ? Well, it doesn't have any elements. Such a set is called the empty set, which is written as "{}" or a zero with a slash through it. Why this is not the same as 0 will become clear if we consider sets of numbers, rather than sets of objects.

For example, let S = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4} What is the *cardinality* of S? That is, how many elements does S have? Clearly, it has 5. Mathematicians write this as |S| = 5. Now, consider the subset {0} of S. It contains a single element, 0. But it is not the empty set, for the empty set has *no* elements. Is the empty set a subset of S? Sure! To see why, ask yourself, "Is S a subset of itself?" Yes, because S contains itself, or every element of S is also an element of S (of course). Then S \ S must also be a subset of S. But this is, of course, the empty set. So both {} and {0} are valid subsets of S, but they are not the same.

To see an example of the difference between 0 and {}, we ask, "what is the value of x such that 5 + x = 3 + 2 ? Clearly, x = 0 is the answer. Now, what about "what is the value of x such that: x + 5 = 1, and x + 1 = 1 Obviously, there is no answer; that is, x = {}.

Now, hopefully, things are a bit more clear. The idea of "nothing" stems from this notion of a collection. Like eggs in a basket. If you had no eggs (nothing in the basket), then this is analogous to the empty set. The *number* of eggs in the basket is zero. So we can think of "nothing" as a term describing the set itself, whereas "zero" is a term not describing a set, but an element. The confusion between the two is a result of the fact that the number of elements in the empty set is 0.


0 Replies
 
oolongteasup
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 04:20 am
@MattTravis,
Quote:
the universe is here? Can it be true?


uhuh

0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 06:09 am
Where did you get the idea that there was ever nothing? Scientists aren't claiming this (as far as this physics degree holder has ever heard). The idea is that there was "something" (i.e. mass) for as long as time has existed (and perhaps even before that).

... unless you are trying to imply something with the rather anthropomorphic terms "responsible" and "creation".

I think everyone agrees there was something (speak up if you don't). The question is whether that something included a Sentient Creator Being. If there was a sentient being... the question becomes whether an omnipotent being can come from nothing.
MattTravis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 09:27 am
@ebrown p,
Your Argument is very flawed, as if a being created everything, who created it? The answer still remains either nothing, or indeed, something, but then what created that something?
0 Replies
 
MattTravis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 09:31 am
@ebrown p,
Mass doesn't just jump out of a top hat you know, even if there was a big bang, something had to have happened to let in gain its existence in reality.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 09:54 am
@MattTravis,
Quote:
Mass doesn't just jump out of a top hat you know, even if there was a big bang, something had to have happened to let in gain its existence in reality.


What are you suggesting that "something" would be? (of course, the next obvious question is whether that "something" jumped out of a top hat).

The assertion that "something had to have happened" is something that you just made up. There is no logical (or scientific) reason that this has to be true.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 09:59 am
@MattTravis,
Quote:
The answer still remains either nothing, or indeed, something, but then what created that something?




Why does "that something" necessarily have to have a creator? Can't you entertain the thought that "that something" has always been?
MattTravis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 10:09 am
@InfraBlue,
No, I can't. Nothing comes from well nothing. So was nothing from nothing? Are you agreeing with me with your statement in your last comment
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 10:50 am
@MattTravis,
So Matt, you are arguing that the creator hasn't always been? If not, would the creator have come from nothing?
MattTravis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 12:04 pm
@ebrown p,
This is the question you see. Can nothing inversely create something? It is a riddle that is impossible to solve unless the human race becomes intelligent to a Q like level.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 01:45 pm
@MattTravis,
MattTravis wrote:

This is the question you see. Can nothing inversely create something? It is a riddle that is impossible to solve unless the human race becomes intelligent to a Q like level.


....a riddle shrouded in mystery and wrapped inside a question that was meaningless to begin with.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 02:14 pm
@MattTravis,
The human race isn't intelligent to a Q like level... but humans have progressed far beyond the level of this discussion.

Physicists ask these questions too, but they inform their discussions based on thousands of years of math and science.

One of the first steps in a scientific discussion is to avoid (or at least acknowledge and question) assertions. An assertion is something that you state as "fact" even though you have no evidence or even logical backing. You have made several assertions in this discussion.

You are making the assumption that there was ever a time when there was "nothing". This is a very big assertion indeed.

Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 02:27 pm
@ebrown p,
Quote:
You are making the assumption that there was ever a time when there was "nothing". This is a very big assertion indeed.


See my post above. "Nothing" is a very useful concept in philosophical -- and, yes, scientific -- discourse. But, to the best of my knowledge, has no proven existence beyond the theoretical.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 02:50 pm
Is Nothing sacred anymore?
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 03:01 pm
@roger,
Nothing is beyond redemption.
0 Replies
 
 

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