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Is pride good or bad?

 
 
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 08:56 pm
Our dinner table conversation tonight centered around the idea of pride.

I know pride is considered a deadly sin but I also know that we try to teach it to our kids so I've really been thinking about the nature of pride.

At first I thought that maybe the distinction lies in being proud of oneself (good) or proud of some thing (bad).

But then I started thinking.... I've created some things that I'm proud of. I"m not proud of myself for making them but proud of the actual things. And I don't feel bad about it so maybe that isn't the distinction after all.

Let's say I worked really hard and saved my money to buy some desired thing. Is it okay to be proud of that thing? To take pride in that thing?

Or does the fact that I take pride in the thing make me a shallow person?

If I'm humble about the thing is it okay but if I brag about the thing it is bad?

Is it good to be proud or is it bad to be proud?

I just don't know.

What do you think?
 
Eva
 
  4  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 09:09 pm
Pride can be good or bad.
If it inspires you to do even better, it's good.
But if it makes you feel superior to others or justified in doing less, it's bad.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 09:15 pm
@Eva,
Quote:
If it inspires you to do even better, it's good.
But if it makes you feel superior to others or justified in doing less, it's bad.


if it inspires you to do even better it is good
if it clouds your vision ( gets in the way ) or makes you lazy it is bad


people are inferior and superior to others in everything that they do, feeling superior is the proper response to being superior
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 09:25 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Let's say I worked really hard and saved my money to buy some desired thing. Is it okay to be proud of that thing? To take pride in that thing?

Or does the fact that I take pride in the thing make me a shallow person?

If I'm humble about the thing is it okay but if I brag about the thing it is bad?

Is it good to be proud or is it bad to be proud?


Humans seem to respect internalized pride but not externalized pride. That is, we encourage that you be proud of yourself in an abstract non-relative way. You can be proud of yourself for being good but you can't be proud of yourself for being better.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 09:33 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
You can be proud of yourself for being good but you can't be proud of yourself for being better.


I would LOVE to hear your explanation for contests and awards for winning contests then. As well as your explanation for why glory goes to the winners of war and capitalism.
roger
 
  3  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 09:35 pm
@boomerang,
Pride is bad. Call it self respect, and it can be very good.
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 09:35 pm
Looks as though it is ll in how one defines it...plus one's culture:


pride

noun

1: a feeling of self-respect and personal worth [syn: pridefulness] [ant: humility]
2: satisfaction with your (or another's) achievements; "he takes pride in his son's success"
3: the trait of being spurred on by a dislike of falling below your standards [ant: humility]

5: unreasonable and inordinate self-esteem (personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: superbia]


Personally, I think definition No. 1 is a good thing, if reasonably well-deserved, and when it drives one to live up to standards one considers desirable, for instance by striving to be a better person, and not to allow oneself to be treated badly.

We tend to focus a lot on No. 5, but it is not the only meaning.



0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 09:38 pm
@roger,
Quote:
Pride is bad. Call it self respect, and it can be very good.


Have you never had a boss request that you take more pride in your work, or heard it said to others? What, all of these calls are misguided and an aberration of social standards?

What poppycock
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I would LOVE to hear your explanation for contests and awards for winning contests then.


If I walk up to you and slap you lightly society frowns on it. If we agree to enter a boxing ring and beat each other silly society watches it.

We frown on the aggression unless the participants agree to it. So when someone is proud in a way that positions themselves as relatively superior to those in their proximity they have engaged those in their vicinity to a competition that has not been agreed to by all parties and that may be resented by some of the involuntary participants.

And these are tendencies, not inviolable rules hawkeye, so yes there will be exceptions and sometimes you'll find sub-cultures or situations where humans engage in an orgy of aggression and pride. But most people don't like unwelcome comparisons of themselves with others and externalized pride makes relative statements. Being proud of yourself is acceptable when it doesn't center around the implicit "better than you" part of arrogance that most people resent.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:21 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Being proud of yourself is acceptable when it doesn't center around the implicit "better than you" part of arrogance that most people resent.


Ya, I remember a few minutes back in the seventies when lots of woman refused to compete, did not shave or use make-up, it did not last very long. Our entire civilization revolves around competition, and rewarding the victor.

What we don't like is victors rubbing the losers noses in the loss, but you cant reasonably parlay that into societal qualms about pride. The rule is have pride in what you did, but be compassionate enough to be a good sport about it.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Jan, 2010 10:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Fair enough. I don't think it was bad as a generalization, though.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 06:14 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

Our dinner table conversation tonight centered around the idea of pride.

I know pride is considered a deadly sin but I also know that we try to teach it to our kids
so I've really been thinking about the nature of pride.

At first I thought that maybe the distinction lies in being proud
of oneself (good) or proud of some thing (bad).

But then I started thinking.... I've created some things that I'm proud of.
I"m not proud of myself for making them but proud of the actual things.
And I don't feel bad about it so maybe that isn't the distinction after all.

Let's say I worked really hard and saved my money to buy some desired thing.
Is it okay to be proud of that thing? To take pride in that thing?

Or does the fact that I take pride in the thing make me a shallow person?

If I'm humble about the thing is it okay but if I brag about the thing it is bad?

Is it good to be proud or is it bad to be proud?

I just don't know.

What do you think?
It is GOOD.
It is the opposite of disspirited dejection.
Pride makes your life happier.
Pride is indicative of SUCCESS. It is a joyful emotion.

Applied to yourself, it means that u know that u have done well.
Pride is the opposite of being ashamed of failure.

When u have something to be proud of,
other people CONGRATULATE u and wish that thay had it,
like my $10 Gold piece from 1795,
the first year of issue of any ` gold by the USA,
in the highest denomination that it was ever issued until 1849,
when thay struck gold at Sutter 's Mill in California. When I show it to folks, I proudly
tell them, truthfully, that George Washington picked up a feather quil and signed
a parchment statute authorizing Alexander Hamiltion to mint that coin.
Thay r ususally thrilled by the history of it.

People shoud make files in their computers
of all the things that thay r proud of.
When I remember things that I have done
that I liked, I feel good and proud of them.
One of my successes was a hedonic creation of joy
about 30 years ago, on New Year 's Day.
I was walking to a movie theater with some ladies,
when a young red haired lad,
maybe in his early 20s, emerged from a closed construction site
onto the sidewalk and asked me for a quarter. I sent the ladies
on ahead to the theater, and I gave him $5. He was overjoyed.
I said to him: "there 's something I want u to DO."
He asked me what it was. I said to him: "Have a HAPPY . . .new year." He received my blessing exultantly.

I was proud of my creation of happiness. It was a good day.

What does Mo think of PRIDE ?



David
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  3  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 08:32 am
@boomerang,
I'm reminded of something that happened at my center in L.A.:

My students (deaf, mostly immigrants), somehow started a game where they tried to stump me with words from the dictionary. More and more people got involved and there was much laughter as they kept coming up with words that they thought would finally be my downfall and I'd handily define them. A rascally type made up a word in an attempt to finally get me and I said "that's not a word!!", more laughter as that was confirmed. Etc.

One of my staff, who was part of this very... strict?... church, signed to another staff member who was also part of the same church that I was being big-headed/ "prideful." (She thought I couldn't see her but I could.) We had a discussion about it later.

In my perspective, I was doing several things. I was grabbing a teachable moment (I had my students voluntarily reading the dictionary!), and I was using a competition situation to emphasize a meta-message, that language skills are good and important.

I think the expression of pride is where I see differences. I think you can THINK whatever you want, pride-wise and there's nothing sinful about it. If you are somehow humiliating another person with your expression of pride, that's a problem. (I'd excerpt sports sorts of situations where a person can expect that there would be trash-talking -- I got in the face of people I played b-ball against [and they got in mine], I don't think that's a problem. And humiliation didn't/ shouldn't have result[ed].)
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 09:40 am
@sozobe,
From your post, it is clear that u were not arrogant.

I wonder whether the Biblical objection to PRIDE
had arrogance in mind?

Based upon the facts of your explanation,
it is obvious that u were acting as a good and successful teacher,
with a well reasoned plan.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 09:55 am
Very interesting, all. Thank you.

You've given me some ideas to tumble around in my head --

Is pride bad when it bumps heads with vanity (superiority) but otherwise okay? And, if so, how do you teach pride while avoiding vanity?

And the "doing less" stuff -- I used to raise about $10,000 each year for a certain charity. Now that I'm retired I do less. It isn't because I'm lazy or that I'm resting on past accomplishments but just that my circumstances have changed. Do I not deserve to feel proud of what I did do?

Perhaps it has something to do with motive -- like in Soz's example. Soz's motive was great -- she was engaging the students in a fun learning exercise. The Church Lady didn't understand the motive so she saw Soz as prideful.

On the other hand, if we go around boasting on our motives doesn't that in itself prideful?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 10:05 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
On the other hand, if we go around boasting on our motives
doesn't that in itself prideful?
Freedom of speech being what it is,
we are all well within our rights to promote whatever we believe is best.

Propagate what we r proud of, e.g. personal freedom.
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 10:24 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
...And the "doing less" stuff -- I used to raise about $10,000 each year for a certain charity. Now that I'm retired I do less. It isn't because I'm lazy or that I'm resting on past accomplishments but just that my circumstances have changed. Do I not deserve to feel proud of what I did do?...


Of course you do! That's not what I meant. Before I had SonofEva, I spent almost ten years doing community volunteer work. I am very proud of what I accomplished during those years, but like you, I'm focused on other things now.

It's perfectly right and natural for our circumstances to change. I was referring to people who rest on past accomplishments and use them as an excuse not to contribute when they could. In those cases, pride is a bad thing.



boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 10:51 am
@Eva,
Yeah, I get that Eva.

But it's probably too easy to judge someone as resting on past accomplishments if we're on the outside looking in. Chances are their circumstances have changed as well.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 11:06 am
Let me give you all the cicumstances that led to my confusion about pride. It's just intended as a jumping off point:

Mo wanted a pair of very expensive shoes. I had the money to buy him the shoes but wouldn't -- because I don't think children need expensive shoes. In fact, I hate the whole idea of "status" clothing.

I told Mo that if he wanted the shoes he would have to save up his own money to buy them. I thought he would forget all about them or that something else would catch his fancy. Never did I think that when he had the cash in hand that he would spend it on shoes.

Well, I was wrong. The other day he announced that he had saved enough money (Christmas and birthday coming close together helps) and he wanted me to take him to buy the shoes.

So I did.

At dinner he announced that he couldn't wait to get to school to show off his fancy shoes.

I'm proud of him for saving the money to get what he wants. The shoes represent his accomplishment and determination. That's cool. He has reason to be proud of himself, and his shoes.

But to go to school and boast about his shoes is another thing. From the outside he's just an obnoxious kid bragging about his expensive shoes. And in general, shoes are a stupid thing to be proud of.

I'd never really thought about pride having two such distinct sides and started wondering how pride is perceived by others. It's almost like our own pride is good but any body else's pride is bad.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 11:59 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
Let me give you all the cicumstances that led to my confusion about pride.
It's just intended as a jumping off point:

Mo wanted a pair of very expensive shoes. I had the money to buy him the shoes but wouldn't --
because I don't think children need expensive shoes.
What thay need and what thay want r not necessarily the same.


boomerang wrote:

In fact, I hate the whole idea of "status" clothing.

I told Mo that if he wanted the shoes he would have to save up
his own money to buy them. I thought he would forget all about
them or that something else would catch his fancy. Never did I think
that when he had the cash in hand that he would spend it on shoes.

Well, I was wrong. The other day he announced that he had saved
enough money (Christmas and birthday coming close together helps)
and he wanted me to take him to buy the shoes.

So I did.

At dinner he announced that he couldn't wait to get to school
to show off his fancy shoes.

I'm proud of him for saving the money to get what he wants.
The shoes represent his accomplishment and determination.
That's cool. He has reason to be proud of himself, and his shoes.

But to go to school and boast about his shoes is another thing.
From the outside he's just an obnoxious kid bragging about his expensive shoes.
If thay r distinct and recognizable,
then maybe he can just stroll in and the adulation will flood in on him,
as he silently enjoys it; possibly, he need not necessarily BRAG about them.






boomerang wrote:
And in general, shoes are a stupid thing to be proud of.
I agree with U; I certainly was never proud of my shoes,
but it is a matter of taste and perception. Beauty and value r
in the eye of the beholder.

boomerang wrote:
I'd never really thought about pride having two such distinct sides and started wondering how pride
is perceived by others. It's almost like our own pride is good but any body else's pride is bad.
Arrogance is bad, but self-confidence is good.
The value of Life is all about feeling good.

What does Mo think about pride ?



David
0 Replies
 
 

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