6
   

Is it or isn't it?

 
 
mesquite
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 01:46 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
I think it's safe to assume that Paul was referring to only that contained between the covers.

There were covers when Paul wrote Timothy? I was under the impression that the covers came a few centuries later.
mesquite
 
  2  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 04:53 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Since I haven't been able to trap any believers in this thread, perhaps you could liven things up by declaring a few of the 'bad guides'.


Hmm, since you didn't comment on my first "bad guide" offering, here is another for your perusal.
In Exodus 21 Moses wrote:
:20 If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.

:21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

As an aside beyond the repugnancy of this instruction, and since you have a concern for splitting hairs in a standard, doesn't "a day or two" seem rather vague? Toes up after three days would be permissible?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 12:19 am
@mesquite,
mesquite wrote:

OK, let's start with this one about to conduct warfare.

At Deuteronomy 20:10 the god decrees:

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you."

Sorry to have been away.
I was away. . .
I agree this is harsh, but let me ask:

Are you saying these people did not deserve to die?
Even the Jews all deserved to die.
As do we all deserve to die.

Are you saying that Jehovah does not have as his purpose to cause all who have died to have another chance at life?

I'm not asking you to believe, but the same Bible you are using to post this straw man also provides the remedy.

For most who have died. Perhaps not Cain. Perhaps not Judas.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 12:22 am
@mesquite,
Oops!

What are those thingies that hold the scrolls?
Eorl
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 01:13 am
@neologist,
Pastry trays?
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 06:11 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Are you saying these people did not deserve to die?

That's what I am saying in the context of that text not being a good guide for human behavior.

neologist wrote:
Even the Jews all deserved to die.
As do we all deserve to die.

With that outlook, why even be concerned about human behavior?

neologist wrote:
Are you saying that Jehovah does not have as his purpose to cause all who have died to have another chance at life?

No, I am saying that text is not a good guide for human behavior.

neologist wrote:
I'm not asking you to believe, but the same Bible you are using to post this straw man also provides the remedy.

Strawman? What has been misrepresented? Irregardless of any so called remedy, that text is still not a good guide for human behavior.

neologist wrote:
For most who have died. Perhaps not Cain. Perhaps not Judas.

I thought Judas was part of "the plan".
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 09:30 am
@mesquite,
Before we lose focus:
I am approaching the subject of the Bible as a whole.
For every statement that requires an explanation, the Bible provides an explanation.
You don't have to believe it, of course.

mesquite
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Jan, 2010 11:56 pm
@neologist,
Yes, I do understand that you like to discount the extreme barbarism in the O.T. by way of the promise that all will have another chance sometime in the future. That does not alter the fact that the bible is useless as a guide to moral behavior of humans in this worldly life.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 01:43 pm
@mesquite,
I don't take issue with your perception:
Most of the people in this world have exemplary moral standards without the Bible.
That is a credit to their creator. ( According to the Bible, should you choose to believe it.)
And many thump the Bible with blood stained hands.
That is not the fault of either the Bible or the God who inspired it. ( Also according to the Bible.)
Those who read with discernment know this.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Jan, 2010 01:49 pm
@mesquite,
mesquite wrote:
Yes, I do understand that you like to discount the extreme barbarism in the O.T. . .
Perhaps you prefer the civilized practices of the Baal worshipping Canaanites.

Apparently, Jehovah sought to eliminate those who burned their children alive.
mesquite
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 12:38 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

I don't take issue with your perception:
Most of the people in this world have exemplary moral standards without the Bible.
That is a credit to their creator. ( According to the Bible, should you choose to believe it.)
And many thump the Bible with blood stained hands.
That is not the fault of either the Bible or the God who inspired it. ( Also according to the Bible.)
Those who read with discernment know this.

Good people do good things with or without religion/following the Bible. Bad people do bad things with or without religion/following the Bible. For good people to do bad things, it takes religion/following the Bible. I'd bet that the good people doing bad things really do think that they read with discernment.
mesquite
 
  3  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 01:01 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Perhaps you prefer the civilized practices of the Baal worshipping Canaanites.

Apparently, Jehovah sought to eliminate those who burned their children alive.

Don't you suppose that such a practice probably came about by trying to please some God? (good people doing bad things)
Eliminating all of the children certainly put a stop to that practice!
In Deuteronomy 20 Moses wrote:
16 As for the towns of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them.

17 You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you.


Talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water...

0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 06:24 am
@mesquite,
Quote:
For good people to do bad things, it takes religion/following the Bible

Really - so only religiously observant good people ever do bad things?
How about good people who have a lapse in judgment or under the influence of alcohol and drugs or give in to societal pressures?

Actually, it's my own theory that people who use religion as a screen to do bad things are not good at all, despite how 'good' they might want or do appear to be. They're probably the most manipulative bad people there are.
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 10:02 am
@aidan,
I believe the "good people/bad things" quote is currently being used in the modern context of Islamic suicide bombers though reference is equally applicable to Christianity with respect to the Crusades etc. The central issue (raised by Harris et al) is not that scripture includes codes of behaviour, but that it supports the concept of "an afterlife". Atheists therefore argue that even moderate believers in "an afterlife" give succour to extremists who in their turn reject the moral authority of moderates.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 10:18 am
@fresco,
Good point about the afterlife.
Despite the convoluted reasoning of many nominal christians, the Bible does not teach it.
(Ezekiel 18:4) . . .The soul that is sinning"it itself will die.
(Psalm 146:4) . . .His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 10:23 am
@mesquite,
mesquite wrote:
. . . I'd bet that the good people doing bad things really do think that they read with discernment.

No doubt.
But discernment requires self examination as well.
Let our beliefs not be influenced by desire for reward or license.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 12:15 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

(Jhn 3:16; see 3:15,36; 5:24,40; 6:27,47-58; 1Jn 3:15; 5:11-13; etc)

Quote:
"Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)"

(An-Naba 78:31-34).
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 12:52 pm
@fresco,
Everlasting life is God's purpose.
That is not the same as immortality.
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 01:07 pm
@neologist,
White man speak with forked tongue ! Wink
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Jan, 2010 02:12 pm
@fresco,
Most believers in immortality believe the soul cannot die. That is not the case.
For the vast majority of mankind the cloice is not heaven/hell but life and death
being or nothingness.
 

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