A personal relationship with God.

There has been some lucid writing on religion and politics, though the belligerence, ignorant or not, tends to get in the way. People can be and are curious, and some gradually moderate their opinions. A lot of us tweak our views or at least understand other views from good argument.

hmmmm.... I think you've mixed up your few and most, Ionus. Yes, there are a few bullies. In my experience, most of the regular posters are interested in opinion and discussion.

As to having a personal relationship with God, it's the only kind of relationship one can have with God. Having a group relationship may satisfy the needs of the group but it doesn't accomplish anything for the individual.

Ionus given the record going back thousands of years of people being torture and kill in the name of one irrational belief or another by the millions, being kind to those who still would wish to advance such silliness seem neither wise or even kind to them in the long run.

Even in the case of the kind and loving son of god who is there to act as a buffer to the evil god of the old testaments there is an ocean of blood that had been spill by his followers over one issue or another concerning his nature.

To say nothing of the harm such followers do in the public sphere by trying and in may cases imposing their leaderships ideas of morality on the rest of us by force of law.

Idiots shouting god is great as they fly planes into large buildings full of people we can do without.

It is past time that we grow up from this silliness.

I always find it humorous when someone claims their flavor of the club as real, or true, or full and the experience of others as somehow flawed.

I once owned a volumn of The Journal of Irreproduceable Results. There were several footnotes like "God--Personal Conversation.

Not precisely on topic, but what the heck.

Do you recognise your own words ?

Billrm given the record going back thousands of years of people being torture and kill in the name of one irrational government or another by the millions, being kind to those who still would wish to advance such silliness seem neither wise or even kind to them in the long run.

Even in the case of the kind and loving government who is there to act as a buffer to the evil in men there is an ocean of blood that had been spill by followers over one issue or another concerning man's nature.

To say nothing of the harm such followers do in the public sphere by trying and in may cases imposing their leaderships ideas of morality on the rest of us by force of law.

Idiots shouting government is good as they scream religion is wrong we can do without.

It is past time that we grow up from this silliness of attacking religion.

All I have to do is change a couple of words and you can be made to say anything. It is not religion you object to, it is people.

john cash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcNiD0Z3MU&feature=related

Sorry Ionus but the passion generate for kings or against kings relate to the passion concerning religion as a candle compare to the mid-day sun or as a firecracker to an atom bomb.

Far far more evil had been done in the name of Jesus then in the name of Hitler or Stalin or...........

Centuries on end man had kill his fellow men and women and children in the name of some god or other.

The root of evil can be found in temples and churches far more then in the hall of governments.

JPG, I agree. A personal relationship is the only kind of relationship one can have with God. And that can happen, mostly, when we are in the valleys of life, not when we are successful and "happy." When we have failed completely, or done something of which we are ashamed and depressed, that's when one of us looks about, seeking something to assist us, crying out, even screaming, demanding, promising to change. This may happen hundreds of times before one of us will decide to bring about that change, no matter what, and begin to live from love instead of fear.

A personal relationship with God is our birth right, whether we are Christian, Muslim, Jew, or no religion at all. But, we have to believe it even if we don't know what "God" is at all.

These things at times sound rather dumb when they are said. It is the feeling of it that matters.

Then you can list religious wars where people were killed ? Lets hear some ...

I wonder if this thread is going in the direction that the Pentacle Queen expected.

For what my opinion is worth, I dont think there is a personal God. But I have several reasons for thinking a God exists that can not be communicated with by humans.

Then you can list religious wars where people were killed ? Lets hear some ...
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You have to be kidding me. Please tell me you do know some history just a little bit of history.

The Muslim faith spread over half the damn planet at the end of a sword just to start with!!!!!!!!

Muslims only having been kicked out of Spain in the 1400s then we also has a few hundred years of the Western Europe responding with one crusade after another into the Holly lands.

Not to mention a crusade or two launched against fellow Christians that did not completely share the correct believes in Europe proper during the same time period.

The catholic/protestants many conflicts and wars plus mass killings over the centuries from the Ireland conflict to the Thirty-year war.

We surely cannot leave out the Hindu/ Muslim conflicts with special reference to India.

Many little tiny conflicts such as the Mormon/Utah war in the heartland of the US.

My question once more is do you happen to know any history at all?

Are you trying to bully me William ? Perhaps you think I respect people who cant argue ? How many wars have been fought for political reasons, because many of those you listed were political not religious. How many died from wars started by governments ? How many died in rebellions and successionist movements ?
We will see wont we...

I know exactly what you mean - on that basis, I've always felt I've had a personal relationship with Bruce Springsteen (I wish...)

No but I think music is a great example of the evidence that there is something that can't be seen, touched, examined or understood that is able to inspire or bond universally. It's exactly the existence and almost universal response to music or beauty or emotion that indicates to me that there's something more than we can ever hope to understand. Where does it come from and why? What purpose does it serve? And why is it something we as humans were given the gift and/or power of being able to produce and be receptive to it while lesser beings weren't?

I think the concept of God ( or some power outside ourselves) is necessary to keep us humble. I think when we believe that we've achieved and created our world and everything in it, totally by and for our own means, that's when the view of earth as a community where all inhabitants are equally valuable falls apart.
When we start looking at and thinking of ourselves and certain of those around us as creators and masters of our own universe the incredible selfishness and arrogance takes over. That's what causes war - human selfishness and arrogance- sometimes masked in the cloak of religion - but make no mistake - that's what it is.

And if a belief in something changes your view and behavior - has an effect on your life - there's a relationship there.

many of those you listed were political not religious. How many died from wars started by governments ? How many died in rebellions and successionist movements ?
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I did not state that all wars was driven by religion just that far more people had been kill in the name of Jesus and such then by Hitler or Stalin for example.

Second whatever the "real” reasons the leadership might had have behind the scene, the driving force to get the people to go along was not political but religion in many many cases.

A Pope might call for a crusade for example for reasons that have nothing to do with religion however to get the people to leave their homes and on their own dime travel thousands of miles in a low technology era take true believers.

Without the religious elements there would had been no crusades and no mass killings as a result of the crusades.

Once more, do you not know any history at all?

Then it should be easy for a clever historian like yourself to add up the people killed in those wars and compare the total to all other wars.

Oh Ionus a fine example of this killing in the name of Jesus was the Spanish Inquisition sold to the Spanish people as a way of saving souls if not the bodies of heretics.

Yes, the real reason behind it was mainly to allow the Spanish Crown to gain the wealth of such groups as the Jews and Muslims who were forced to convert to Christianity in order to be allowed to remain in Spain after the re-conquest of the Iberian Peninsula.

Without the cover of religion and the support of true believers in Christ however this killing/torturing of countless thousands most likely could not had occur.

You mean without the cynical abuse of power by non-believers like you, religious people could not be used ? I am waiting for your total figures...just so you dont look like one more Japanese twit with an opinion.

Then it should be easy for a clever historian like yourself to add up the people killed in those wars and compare the total to all other wars.
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So, you wish a hard census of the numbers kill over two thousands years of history<LOL> and more <LOL>.

A list of city after city and whole people wipe out to the last man woman and child in the name of religion along with "hard" numbers of their populations?

My great grand children will get back to you in around fifty years with the preliminary list for your reading pleasure.

The only problem I can foresee is that it might be hard to get firm numbers for the deaths cause by Hitler and Stalin to compare my great Grand children report to or I could just put another generation to work on that problem for you<grin>.