Race and intelligence

saying that race plays a part in physical ability is specious and racist (against my own race no less)?

denying it would be naive.

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The politically correct crowd speaks an occasional detail that is reality, usually by accident.
While politically correct is only a few decades old terminology, history has been manipolated skillfully for thousands of years so we should probably not speak with authority on any subject as what happened a minute ago is already history. Neil

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Because of the slave trade, which essentially reduced blacks to the status of livestock, blacks in America have reduced social status. Even today, they have not achieved full status, in the eyes of many.

As a result, there is something of a White World and a Black World. It is better than it used to be, but nobody can truly say that race means nothing in America.

The IQ tests measure, to a large extent, how well one fits into the mainstream. Blacks are only partly accepted by the mainstream, so this is reflected in their IQ test performance.

Remember, the IQ tests are basically made up by middle class white men. It is not so surprising that some groups do not do as well.

Asians do quite well on the IQ tests, but the prejudice against them was not so severe as it was against the blacks. It is possible that various social and family factors permit them to frequently do better on the tests than whites.

When we achieve a nation where race means nothing, then the IQ tests might make more sense than they do now.

It should be pointed out that white supremacists are quick to jump on the disparity between whites and blacks on IQ tests to come up with ways to try to limit the black population in America, (eg. a plan to pay mothers who score low on IQ tests not to have babies, etc.).

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kelt, What exactly do you mean by your statement, "Asians do quite well on the IQ tests, but the prejudice against them was not so severe as it was against the blacks." Please explain, because I'm Asian and my experience is first hand knowledge. c.i.

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The prejudice against Asians wasn't nearly as severe as it was against the blacks....hoo yeah, let's hear you defend that kelt....I seem to recall, hmm....railroads, internment camps, should I go on? I'll leave it up to c.i. because he does indeed have the downlow on the 411 regarding that.

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during slavery, the african-americans did have it worse. since slavery i believe the asian-americans were worse off.

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cic, cav, ye110: I am a little short on time tonight. I shall give you a considered answer this weekend. I will back up my statement.

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rufio wrote:

Race has nothing to do with anything biological. It's all in your head.

It does if people mate within color and geographic regional groups, which most still do.

Even language is a factor.
The african americans were bred and naturally selected for hard labor. Those who couldn't work, died. This is why there are many strong and athletic descendants of African americans.
However, for the race "black," this is not true - there is a huge amount of variation in size and physical skill in the native people of africa.
So it is about breeding groups,
If race/geographic location is a specific breeding group for a period of time, then yes, that can affect intelligence. Culture and learning trends within groups are also very important, but strictly speaking, one can only do as much as they have the physical capacity to do - as far as what they are born with can stretch.

It would be silly to try to predict intelligence through skin color, but it is not unscientific to study general intelligence through genetic trends.

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we know that race plays a part in physical ability. because of genetics blacks are generally able to perform better in sports.
so what about intelligence?

This is the dumbest premise I have ever read.

Contained within this thread are some of the most racist comments I have ever seen outside of a Klan meeting. And the promotion of a blatantly racist book on the website, by the webmaster no less, is the lowest rung to which it can sink.

Shame.

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Get a grip Joe. I did not promote the book and clearly stated that I disagree with much of it.

Shame.

Feckless and unsubstantiated acusations are not justified merely on the basis of your sensitivities.

I happen to believe that differences between races do not make up racism, I believe that the conclusion one draws from them do.

There is nothing racist about discussing said differences. Differences do exist. What is racist is to draw the conclusions of racial superiority. Racism is a soft spot for me, I dislike racism very much and have sometimes done what you have done here:

Make a feckless accusation about racism that ultimately weakens the word and reduces its meaning.

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cavfancier wrote:
First, we don't "all know" that race plays a part in physical ability.

Craven replies

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Maybe not, but it's true.

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Second, we also don't "know" that blacks are genetically superior athletes, that is a myth at best.

Craven replies

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Athleticism is varied and in some cases the physiological differences between races do not play a significant part, but this is in no way a myth.

Cavfancier was trying to help you out here, instead you say "Maybe not but it's true." Ah. Well, far be it from me to try to argue with such a sentence but it seems me that you acknowledge you don't know and claim to know at the same time. Oh, wait. I'm wrong, you were saying that not everyone knows what you know to be true. Seems to me that you buy the whole racial differences make the difference idea. Okay, now I know where you stand.

Then you go on to parse the second statement with a 'varied' and a 'some cases' but you come up with the conclusion that it is also true that blacks are genetically superior athletes. And you tell me to get a grip.
Yessir, yessir boss, right away, boss.

Why not go further and claim that they are genetically superior beings?
Oh, oh, that's right. Haven't firm evidence that make that claim, yaas. Well.

I can only hope that's it's your youth that's speaking. I admire you greatly, but this is just sad.

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Cool it Joe. Accusing Craven of racism, even back-handedly, is silly as he hasn't shown any such tendency. Attack the issue, not the person boss. Do you recognize that, whether it's true for blacks or not, it's quite possible for genetics to influence some traits that help athletes excel? If so then I would imagine we could have a civil argument about whether this is happening or not without having to stoop to claims of racism just for the sake of it.

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Umm, also, I'm not really comfortable being dragged into this again. I appreciate the sentiment, but I was done with this thread a while ago. It is in Science and Mathematics now, so should be discussed in that way.

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you say "Maybe not but it's true." Ah. Well, far be it from me to try to argue with such a sentence but it seems me that you acknowledge you don't know and claim to know at the same time. Oh, wait. I'm wrong, you were saying that not everyone knows what you know to be true. Seems to me that you buy the whole racial differences make the difference idea. Okay, now I know where you stand.

I do, indeed, believe that race and genetics make a difference (not the difference) in the average athletic ability of the group described.

I believe it is contingient on the type of athleticism in question.

An obvious example is that a race that is genetically predisposed to being taller than the median has a genetic advantage in basketball, while other sports are less genetically discriminating on the basis of one's height.

This is not just race, this is about genetics, and there is simply no way to argue that genetics doesn't play a part in both race and athleticism. Some of the differences might have circumstantial origin, for example the Kenyan runners are of the opinon that their lifestyle and terrain is related to their excellence in long distance running.

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Then you go on to parse the second statement with a 'varied' and a 'some cases' but you come up with the conclusion that it is also true that blacks are genetically superior athletes. And you tell me to get a grip.

I am far less inclined to see this as a case of superiority and inferiority than you are and that may well be why you see this as a case of racism.

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Why not go further and claim that they are genetically superior beings?

Because I'm not interested in playing the role of the straw man you construct.

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I can only hope that's it's your youth that's speaking. I admire you greatly, but this is just sad.

And hopefully this is just a transitive brainfart on your part and that you won't automatically equate discussion of racial differences with racism. :wink: Racism isn't about thinking that genetic differencs exist between races, it's about making prejudicial opinions based upon those differences. Those conclusions you ascribe to me without my possesion of them.

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Blimey - it seems a little unfortunate that such differences cannot be discussed freely - while I understand the sensitivities that exist because of previous misuse of junk science, it would seem counter-productive not to be able to examine things impartially.

My understanding was that - just as different "races" are differently adapted for certain environments (like black people for the sun,whites for less sun, Inuit people for the cold, some desert Australian Aboriginal people able to lower their body temperatures in the cold desert nights etc - one of theses adaptations, or lack thereof, really hits home here - where we have a ridiculously high rate of skin cancer) that some peoples are, on AVERAGE, physically better suited for some sports than others. I fail to see any actual drama here - though I can understand why some people might see drama where none is intended. It does not seem to be as difficult to talk about here - in the olympics, for example, I noticed several commentators discussing the physical reasons why Oz's Matt Shervington, for instance, was the only white fella competing near the top in running at some distances.

I am interested to see some people saying that the book being discussed, which I have not read, has a political agenda, while others do not agree. I wonder if someone could say what they think this agenda is?

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Or whether they have read the book. I think the junk-science (of which the book referenced contains a dash) of books like the Bell Curve are making people assume things.

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Well, the bunny and Craven make a point....However, I'm not denying the influence of genetics on the human animal, I'm just saying that I, and pretty much everyone, including the pros, do not have enough evidence to support a thesis that race and intelligence are linked, which was the original intent of this thread. Go anthropological if you want, but let's face it....this is just a dumb argument in general.

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A bit of Charles Darwinism is okay in my book. Wink

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Darwinism is just fine there c.i., but to connect intelligence with 'race' is a specious argument at best. Wait a second...I thought I said I wasn't going to be dragged into this again...

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Cav, just for the record I've argued both against the notion that race and intelligence are significantly related as well as the possibility of proving such a bold claim.

I only mention this because you, in effect, said "I see your point BUT don't think race is a factor in intelligence." Because of the contrast I worry that you think that I do. I just wanted to note that I don't, in case there was any confusion on that point.

On another related topic I think that there is a connection between gender and the size of one's breasts. I'm trying to put a finger on it but I'll have to mull them over.

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Race and intelligence

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