Luke 17:3 - Forgiveness

I don't know if anyone can help you from the biblical perspective because some people will never change their opinions where religion is concerned, but I can help with the logic.

If (repent) then (forgive) is the statement here. That does not imply if not (repent) then not (forgive). There can be many reasons to forgive. If a horse is an animal, that does not mean that if something is not a horse, then it is not an animal.

I think the other point here is if (trespass) then (rebuke). I doubt any of you on that other forum are trespassing on this lady. Having a spirited discussion is not a trespass.

I doubt that helps, but it's free.

Arella..
I just looked at several versions of the bible and from what I can see, I think the passage means... If someone sins, or commits a sin against you, If said person ASKS for forgiveness you must grant it. It doesn't matter what the sin was or how many times the person did a sin(?) against you, if someone asks you to forgive them you must do so.
It doesn't mention anything about forgiveness without asking. The passage doesn't give an opionion on forgiveness without a request one way or the other. But didn't Jesus say love thy neighbour?
Isn't that supposed to trump all the other laws, rules, commandments et al?

I agree with engineer and Ceili.

If they repent, then you must forgive. It does not say that you must, should, or even can withhold forgiveness until they repent.

Repentance forces forgiving, but forgiving is not dependent on repentance.

I really appreciate your answers. I agree that it saying IF they repent you forgive doesn't mean if they don't repent you don't forgive. I definitely feel this is her particular spin on the verse. It's becoming more and more obvious that she wants to be unforgiving and hateful and because of this, I can honestly see why Francis feels the way he does about Christianity.

I have looked up some studies on this and everyone of them makes it clear our forgiveness does NOT depend on someone repenting. We forgive because God forgave us. It's such a simple concept but she just doesn't seem to get it.

Hmmm, okay I found this study on forgiveness and it kind of supports her IF they repent, then forgive understanding of it. But, I don't completely agree with their assessment.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/forgiveness_reconciliation.html

I am very interested in your take on what is on that link.

It's like Jesus said, You have heard it said to hate your enemies, BUT I TELL YOU, love your enemies. Pray for those that despitefully use you, etc. (paraphrased, I know that's not word for word.)

I think a big problem in Christianity is some thing because we are to be like Christ, that gives us some authority we don't actually have. Now, if Jesus tells me, "you heard it said.....................but I TELL YOU............." um, seems to me I ought to be listening to what Jesus said.

Our enemies are never our brothers and sisters in Christ, so it would seem to me our enemies is pretty descriptive. The most I can find about what we are to do with people that won't repent, etc., is we are to give them scripture about how they are to behave and if they refuse the rebuke (a much overused word in the chat room, believe me) we are to dust off our feet. I find nowhere in scripture that gives us the permission or authority to call people names, bash them, laugh at them because we think they are going to hell, or not forgive them, etc.

I am learning more and more just how very easily people can twist scripture to mean what they want it to say. I am sure sometime in my life I've done it myself whether I really realized it or not. I am studying a lot so that I do not do this.

It seems to me that they are conflating forgiveness and reconciliation.

Just because you forgive someone does not mean that you have to allow them to hurt you again.

God forgives with repentance. We (man) should forgive regardless of whether the person is repentant or not. Ceili pointed out earlier that we are to love our neighbours. And that includes forgiving them. We cannot be forgiven by God if we ourselves do not forgive and repent.

Here's another prespective on forgiveness. Many of the parables in the bible and Christ's lessons to us are what he was taught, based on universal teachings:

The Buddha was sitting under a tree talking to his disciples when a man came and spit on his face. He wiped it off, and he asked the man, “What next? What do you want to say next?” The man was a little puzzled because he himself never expected that when you spit on somebody’s face, he will ask, “What next?” He had no such experience in his past. He had insulted people and they had become angry and they had reacted. Or if they were cowards and weaklings, they had smiled, trying to bribe the man. But Buddha was like neither, he was not angry nor in any way offended, nor in any way cowardly. But just matter-of-factly he said, “What next?” There was no reaction on his part.

Buddha’s disciples became angry, they reacted. His closest disciple, Ananda, said, “This is too much, and we cannot tolerate it. He has to be punished for it. Otherwise everybody will start doing things like this.”

Buddha said, “You keep silent. He has not offended me, but you are offending me. He is new, a stranger. He must have heard from people something about me, that this man is an atheist, a dangerous man who is throwing people off their track, a revolutionary, a corrupter. And he may have formed some idea, a notion of me. He has not spit on me, he has spit on his notion. He has spit on his idea of me because he does not know me at all, so how can he spit on me?

“If you think on it deeply,” Buddha said, “he has spit on his own mind. I am not part of it, and I can see that this poor man must have something else to say because this is a way of saying something. Spitting is a way of saying something. There are moments when you feel that language is impotent: in deep love, in intense anger, in hate, in prayer. There are intense moments when language is impotent. Then you have to do something. When you are angry, intensely angry, you hit the person, you spit on him, you are saying something. I can understand him. He must have something more to say, that’s why I’m asking, “What next?”

The man was even more puzzled! And Buddha said to his disciples, “I am more offended by you because you know me, and you have lived for years with me, and still you react.”

Puzzled, confused, the man returned home. He could not sleep the whole night. When you see a Buddha, it is difficult, impossible to sleep again the way you used to sleep before. Again and again he was haunted by the experience. He could not explain it to himself, what had happened. He was trembling all over and perspiring. He had never come across such a man; he shattered his whole mind and his whole pattern, his whole past.

The next morning he was back there. He threw himself at Buddha’s feet. Buddha asked him again, “What next? This, too, is a way of saying something that cannot be said in language. When you come and touch my feet, you are saying something that cannot be said ordinarily, for which all words are a little narrow; it cannot be contained in them.” Buddha said, “Look, Ananda, this man is again here, he is saying something. This man is a man of deep emotions.”

The man looked at Buddha and said, “Forgive me for what I did yesterday.”

Buddha said, “Forgive? But I am not the same man to whom you did it. The Ganges goes on flowing, it is never the same Ganges again. Every man is a river. The man you spit upon is no longer here. I look just like him, but I am not the same, much has happened in these twenty-four hours! The river has flowed so much. So I cannot forgive you because I have no grudge against you.”

“And you also are new. I can see you are not the same man who came yesterday because that man was angry and he spit, whereas you are bowing at my feet, touching my feet. How can you be the same man? You are not the same man, so let us forget about it. Those two people, the man who spit and the man on whom he spit, both are no more. Come closer. Let us talk of something else.”

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I also suggest that you talk of something else.

I read every page of Luke and did not find any reference to Mr. Buddha.

Turn the other cheek.

Well, since Buddha doesn't appear in your religious text, he must be unimportant.

Have you checked to see if you are in said text?

I am least important of all

Can't you love someone and not give forgiveness because they have not asked to be forgiven. I belive God loves us and will forgive us, but we have to ask to be forgiven.

But, if you do love someone, wouldn't forgive them whether they asked for forgiveness or not? The Bible does say if we do not forgive them God will not forgive us. I know, for me, if I don't forgive someone, whether they ask for forgiveness or not, that unforgiveness can turn into resentment in a very short order and resentment hurts no one but me.

I think forgiveness is up to each individual person. I would never advocate either forgiving or not forgiving for anyone, it's a personal decision. As for the passage, I was merely interpreting what I read.

Arella Mae,
Definately, without a doubt the other person you chat with is really failing and quite possibly putting her salvation at risk. Forgiveness to all men is required, whatever the circumstance. If we want to be forgiven by God , then we must forgive. It goes with one of the ten commandments.........Love your neighbor as yourself. Also we reap what we sow.

The same old crap.

Life is not fair, everybody knows that but you persist in your fairy notions..