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How we know the Universe has not existed forever

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2003 03:01 pm
BoGoWo wrote:

But the 'nothingness' from which it came is, by its very nature, 'infinite'; one cannot isolate a descrete piece of 'nothingness'; it is a state of non-being, a concept, an idea; and, therefore "infinite"!


This is an excellent observation! Nothing is infinite! How could it be possible that Nothing is finite?
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ican711nm
 
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Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2003 03:04 pm
fresco wrote:

Originally scientists thought "wave" and "particle" were two mutually exclusive states as applied to say electrons but the "reality" of the state is now considered to be a function of purpose of the question asked and "evidence" could be observed for either position. If we apply similar reasoning to the question of "whether the universe is finite or not" the implication is that the status of the evidence presented is likely to also reflect the purposes of the observer, especially since the mathematics of "infinity" identifies different versions of the concept. (See for example "Infinity and the Mind" by Martin Rucker)


I'm guessing of course, but I bet the stuff of the whole universe consists of the stuff of our finite universe plus the stuff of nothing.
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fresco
 
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Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2003 04:13 pm
Ican

(BTW I've just spotted your slogan which says it all ! )
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Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2003 06:19 pm
BoGoWo wrote:
Frank; something that you will, one day, have to come to terms with, is that, while all things must (with evidence to the contrary not available) either possible, or impossible, thinks are "actually" either 'true', or 'not true', but not both! Rolling Eyes

at the very least, a flip of a coin will tell you quite a lot! Laughing


What on earth makes you think I don't accept that?
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akaMechsmith
 
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Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2003 08:05 pm
Mostly I don't like the extra "assumptions" required in a finite universe. In the assumption that we exist we may already be stretching it. Smile
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akaMechsmith
 
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Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2003 08:08 pm
Unless of course something designed the Universe with us in mind and wished to entertain us.
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satt fs
 
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Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2003 08:23 pm
My intuition is that the big bang theory (instantaneous transition from the initial singularity with the zero scale factor to regular universe with a positive scale factor), if one supposes an infinite universe, does not seem to be very persuasive for me. There is, in the infinite universe case, a double jump from zero to infinity as a figure. I prefer a finite universe. It seems more natural. A jump (or continuous transition) from zero to a finite value appears convincing.
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akaMechsmith
 
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Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2003 09:11 pm
Satts, Thanks for your patience:
My intuition leads me to wonder if it ever began at all. Evolved, changed, in constant flux, probably. I tend to doubt though that there ever was a "time that wasn't" so's to speak.

The Fermi Paradox, The infinite light and temperature problem. The "red shift" observations, CMBR etc. IMO are probably all resolveable "mechanically".

The very numbers of theorized universes kicking around, all espoused by various Phd's kind of leads me to think that there may be no "origination theory" required at all. Sad

The very numbers of religious theories kicking around all espoused by various Doctors of Theology kind of leads me to think that there is no "Creation Theory" required at all. Sad

It'd be nice to be able to work it out before I get a chance to "see for myself" Exclamation
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BoGoWo
 
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Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 07:02 pm
satt; you are assuming that our discussion refers to the 'observable' universe as "all there is"; not so, what we see, and what we inhabit, is only the 'immediate' universe, with which we are most familliar. But there is surely a "beyond" to that, something similar, or different from what we observe on a daily basis. My infinity includes, but is not limited to the 'big bang' phenominon.

and Mech;
akaMechsmith wrote:
It'd be nice to be able to work it out before I get a chance to "see for myself" Exclamation

that only happens in the most unlikely scenario of all - an actual 'heaven'! Rolling Eyes
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akaMechsmith
 
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Reply Thu 30 Oct, 2003 07:49 pm
O Bogowo,
You mean that I have actually been good for nothing? Darn :wink:
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BoGoWo
 
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Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 03:52 pm
No, no, Mech;

you have been "good" for 'everything'!

"nothing" is what follows....................
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Nov, 2003 04:41 pm
akaMechsmith wrote:
O Bogowo,
You mean that I have actually been good for nothing? Darn :wink:


once upon a time joe, a very good man, died and arrived at the gates of heaven.

jesus at the gates welcomes joe and immediately ushers him into heaven.

joe asks, how come, jesus, you didn't ask me any questions before letting me into heaven?

jesus said to joe, I don't have any questions.

joe then asks jesus, did the heavenly record book answer all your questions about my earthly behavior?

jesus says, follow me.

jesus shows joe an infinite plain with row upon row of souls kicking the butts of the souls in front of them.

jesus then says to joe, these souls discovered for the first time here at the gates of heaven that we don't keep books up here! Care to join them?

Laughing
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